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glass panels- for newbies

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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Catharine C. Kennedy
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am
Location: Chatham Center, NY

glass panels- for newbies

Post by Catharine C. Kennedy »

I keep looking at the posted pictures and reading about the meets for glass work... and I still have no idea where to begin-
Any chance some of the glass masters could post a "how-to", step-by-step for a glass project with all the bells and whistles (except acid etching) for us to try at home? I'd love to try the shell veneers and all that, but it just is rather overwelming...
Thanks!
Catharine
:?:
Catharine C. Kennedy
Chatham Center, NY
John Studden
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:40 am

Post by John Studden »

Catherine, If you are interested, Noel & myself will be holding Gold Leaf classes pretty soon now, involving all the advanced techniques needed for those types of projects. They will be held in both Los Angeles & Boise regularly. As soon as he returns from Greece we will set some dates......

Thanks John
John Studden
Valencia Signs, California
joe crumley
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Post by joe crumley »

John,

Please keep us posted.

Joe
Catharine C. Kennedy
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am
Location: Chatham Center, NY

Post by Catharine C. Kennedy »

ACE! :lol:
Catharine C. Kennedy
Chatham Center, NY
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Catharine,
I would definitely suggest investing in one of their gold seminars. Both are extremely talented and skilled. You will learn as much in weekend as your brain can handle and will jump start your learning curve.

From personal experience, your question or request has such a broad range it would hard to fullfill. It seems most of the gold projects require integration of dozens of individual skills and techniques that are basically simple, but must be mastered individually. Some might take a lot of training and practice (such as brush lettering skills).

Check out:
http://www.signcraft.com/features.asp

There are numerous step-by-step articles about gold leaf in the on line article at the SignCraft web site. Ididn't see it on the list, but I did a step-by-step of sorts about a year ago on Gold Rush Cigars.

Image
This was in issue 136.

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Catharine C. Kennedy
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am
Location: Chatham Center, NY

Post by Catharine C. Kennedy »

Thanks- I found that issue and will go over it with new eyes... seeing is most of this art, isn't it?
Catharine C. Kennedy
Chatham Center, NY
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Location: Jackson Hole, WY
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Catharine,
That step by step was really just an overview, highlighting how you can now blend old and new technology. It was not really a step-by-step tutorial on exactly how to make the sign, but there should be good little tidbits that overlap each other.

Again, the processes used are a combination of a lot of smaller learning steps. MANY of those smaller processes are examined thoroughly in the other on-line step by step articles on the SignCraft site see the link above). If you neglect to take advantage of them, you are missing out on a wealth of important knowledge. I believe all of them are in PDF format, so you can open and print them on your color printer and insert them into a nice three ring binder.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Russ McMullin
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:57 am
Location: Tooele, UT
Contact:

Post by Russ McMullin »

Catherine, I would be happy to give a review of the steps we took, and of things I learned to do, and not do. Over the phone might be easiests. I'm not a master of the craft, but I did see and participate in the process at Larry's meet.
Russ McMullin
Posts: 58
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Location: Tooele, UT
Contact:

Post by Russ McMullin »

There are endless possibilities when it comes to creating a design on a piece of glass, but it's possible to record the steps taken for a particular project. There are some gaps in my knowledge, but here is how the project came together from my perspective:

Design:
Larry created the design, so that was already done when we got there. I know other people helped create the prototype and get the meet ready, but I'm not sure who did what.

Two silkscreens were made - one for the gold areas, and one for the black areas. Each screen had an identical set of registration marks. Before our arrival, each piece of glass was aligned to one of the screens, and printed with a set of registration marks. The registration marks made it possible line up each stage of the project perfectly on the glass

Each person received a vinyl mask for chipping and etching - registration marks were in the vinyl as well

Etching:
The acid paste was made from hydroflouric acid, with mica chips added. Food coloring in the acid paste indicates how big the mica chips are - 4 different sizes. Each size gives a finer or courser texture in relation to the others. The coloring also makes the acid easy to see, in the case of accidental contact with skin.

We applied the vinyl mask to the back of the glass using the registration marks. First we completely cut out the registration marks on the vinyl and backing paper. When the registration marks on the glass were visible through the holes in the vinyl mask, the vinyl was taped in place, hinged, and applied.

After the mask was applied, we covered the front and sides of the glass to protect it from sandblasting and acid fumes. We used application tape on the front, and then patched up the smaller areas with tape. Plastic tape works better than masking tape because it doesn't absorb any of the acid. We removed the vinyl from the parts of the design that were to be be acid etched, and taped over the area that would later be chipped.

Disposable surgical gloves are worn under heavier rubber gloves as an added protection. Hydroflouric acid can be very dangerous, as it has an affinity for calcuim...in bones. We were very careful to avoid any contact with the acid.

A vinyl squeegee cut in half, across the ridges, makes two mini squeegees. These are used to scoop out the acid paste - like serving salad. The acid paste is applied to the exposed glass in a fairly heavy layer, and allowed to remain for 30 minutes.

Once the etching was complete, we scooped the acid paste back into the container - it can be re-used. We rinsed off any acid residue with water - sprayers were used first, and later cups of water were poured over the glass

Sandblasting:
Sandblasted glass gives a better surface for glue chipping than smooth glass. We removed the vinyl from the parts of the design that needed chipping, and taped over the etched areas. We put the glass into the blast cabinet, and blasted until the shine was completely removed from the chipping area. I can't remember specs on the sandblasting equipment. It was powerful enough to carve the glass, but I'm wondering if something like an air eraser would also be sufficient to create a glue chipping surface.

Applying the glue:
In this case we didn't use the asphaltum method so the vinyl mask remained in place when applying the glue. The glue was heated in a special glue pot, but I'm told that it can be heated in the microwave. To contain the glue, a rectangle-shaped dam was made from pieces of stiff cardboard and tape. A wooden block was used as a template to mark where the dam would be put - this kept each dam the same size.

The surface area inside the dam was used to calculate how much glue to pour on - I can't remember the ratio. With the surface level, the glue was measured in a pyrex cup and poured into the dam. The glue layer ended up around an 1/8" thick, or perhaps slightly less.

We waited until the glue had set up to the point where a cut in the glue with an exacto wouldn't "heal". We traced around the edges of the letters with the exacto, to separate the letters. Once the letters were separated, we removed the vinyl mask, and the excess glue came off with it - all masking was removed from the glass. What remained was the glue in letter shapes on the clear glass

Chipping:
The glass was put into a chipping booth and we waited for the glue to dry. At first there was no heat in the booth, and no chipping occured the first day - Friday. The next day heat and fans were going, and it still took quite a few hours to chip. A drier climate would have made for faster chipping, and the heat and fans probably wouldn't have been necessary.

My piece was at the point where it was mostly chipped, but there were still certain places that hadn't chipped. I was sitting around waiting for hours, and then Frank Maesen showed me how to "help" the chipping by tapping or prying on the dried glue with the tip of an exacto knife. Using that method I was able to get all but the smallest bits of glue off. After the chipping I put the glass in the sun and covered it with wet paper towels to soften up any remnants of glue. The glass was then rinsed off with lots of water, and paper towels were used to remove any traces of glue

Cleaning:
The glass needs to be super clean for gilding so I first cleaned it with a slurry of whiting and ammonia. I'm not sure what strength the ammonia was, but it smelled pretty strong. A small scoop of whiting was dropped into a dixie cup, and ammonia was added to fill the cup to be about 1/3 full. The whiting and ammonia was stirred with a popcicle stick until it was completely mixed.

I pulled a wad of loose cotton from a bat of cotton that was nearby. Then I poured part of the mixture onto the glass, and went over the glass with the cotton in swirling patterns. I did this on both sides of the glass several times. I was wearing surgical gloves during the cleaning to avoid contamination from my hands. after each cleaning I would spray off the glass with a hose.

later I was told to try a different method for the final cleaning on the back side. I can't remember but I'll assume I was using a paper towel. I got the paper towel wet and rubbed the cake of Bon Ami until a good amount was on the paper towel. I started cleaning the glass with swirl patterns, covering the entire surface, and reversing the swirl direction periodically. Then I would let the Bon Ami residue dry completely, and I'd wipe it off with dry cotton in swirling motions, or paper towel - can't remember. I repeated this at least 3 times on the back side of the glass

Gilding:
Larry uses cement mixing tubs to catch the excess water and chemicals that run off the glass during the gilding process. A similar setup is used for the acid etching. There is a wooden "H" made of 2x6 lumber in the bottom of the tub. A plastic diffuser grid for lighting is placed on top of the "H" and this becomes the working surface.

The glass is placed on the grid, with the back side facing up. The gilding instructions are found on angelgilding.com, but I'll do a very basic overview.

A layer of distilled water is sprayed onto the glass to keep dust from collecting on the surface. The distilled water is poured off when the tin solution is ready. The gold can't stick to the glass by itself, so a tin solution is put down first. The tin sticks to the glass, and the gold sticks to the tin. The tin solution stays on for a specific time, and then gets poured off. Distilled water is then used to rinse off the remaining tin solution. The gold solution is mixed up and poured onto the surface of the glass. This is allowed to stand for around 20 minutes if I remember correctly - perhaps longer. The gold will start to attach to the glass, and the glass becomes reflective

Once the gold is finished, the solution is poured off, and the glass is rinsed with distilled water. A final solution of silver is applied, and this adds to the luster of the gold. The silver is poured off and the glass is rinsed again with distilled water.

The glass needs to dry, so it is placed against the wall, in a vertical position - this keeps the water from pooling on the glass. Once the glass is completely dry, it is ready for the first screen print. At this point the entire surface of the glass is a dazzling gold mirror

First screen print:
The first screen print will determine which parts of the design will remain in gold. A screen print is probably more accurate, but I don't see why vinyl mask couldn't be used if screen printing weren't an option. "Backup Black" is used for the screen ink - it likes to dry quickly, so speed is important when doing multiple prints. We had problems with some breeze coming in and drying out the screen. The first screen print is applied to the glass, and it's dry in a very short time.

Clean off the excess gold:
The backup black protects the areas that will remain gold. Once the screen print is dry, the excess gold and silver gets removed with silver strip. Wear gloves in this process. Little self-adhesive foam squares are stuck to the front surface of the glass - this allows the glass to be placed flat without getting scratched.

With the glass flat, silver strip is sprayed onto the surface - this is done by treating a limited area of the glass at one time. Cotton is used to remove the excess gold and silver. The silver comes off easily with silver strip, but the gold actually comes off with the pressure of rubbing. The cotton loads up quickly, and you need to keep turning it over and folding it to assure you are always using a clean piece of cotton. Once all the excess gold is gone, the design shows up in shimmering gold on the front - no black is seen from the front yet.

Note that on the chipped letters, the silkscreen is designed to print wider than the chip. This creates a smooth gold outline around the chipping
This is called the "bright line"

Second screen print:
The second screen print establishes the black outlines and drop shadows around the gold

Finishing:
This is where the possibilities become endless - each person seemed to go in a radically different direction. I used abalone chips in one area. To do this I put down a layer of Fibroseal, sprinkled on the chips, and let dry. Then I put a layer of Fibroseal over that entire accented area. I'm not sure how the larger pieces of abalone were applied - possibly the same way as the small chips. Most people were using 1-shot for coloring the back, and lots of blends and faux finishes were used. The finishing is the part that requires the most skill in my opinion, because it isn't a mechanical process. Each area can have a different treatment, and it's all up to the imagination of the artist.

Attaching the photo to the circle:
I didn't get to see how this was done, so I'm not sure of the best method. I've read about how to do it, but I'd be interested in knowing how Larry would do it.

Design concept:
When I design my own project, here are the guidelines I will be following:

Image
Last edited by Russ McMullin on Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Catharine C. Kennedy
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am
Location: Chatham Center, NY

Post by Catharine C. Kennedy »

hanks SO much for taking the time to post this! Where are the photos of the finished piece?! :o
Catharine C. Kennedy
Chatham Center, NY
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

The Larry White method...

Post by Larry White »

Hi Catherine,
My approach for reverse glass is slightly different from the screen print method. I am not a screen printer as of yet. I enjoy doing most of my work by hand. I suppose there could be a debate on which method is faster on a "one off" piece. Speed was never a concern of mine. I also like to draw with a pencil. Most of my work has been hand drawn. I learned the art from the 2 books, Glue Chipped Glass Signs and Gold Leaf Techniques along with many conversations with fellow artists. Start with a design that can incorporate the techniques you can execute. As I design something, I'm thinking of the techniques to employ at the same time. I also figure the order in which they would need to be executed. My layout drawings incorproate a line for every change in treatment. For example, I'll draw a letter (outside outline), then give it a letter center, those 2 lines would give me, say, a matte center with a burnished outline. I would then draw another outline around the initial letter. This would represent a painted outline, then another line might represent a drop shadow. Then another line might define where a glue chipped backgound ends leaving a clear glass area between the letter. Every painted line width and change in texture or medium is indicated on the layout. The tighter the layout, the tighter the finished piece.

I then take this layout drawing and scale it to the desired size on Kinko's large scale xerox. I procure several copies in reverse. These copies can be registered over the back of the glass to cut out various fields or used to make a pounce pattern. Surface alteration of the glass is always done first. One of hardest things to do is to freehand paint letters in reverse from a pounce pattern over gold leaf. So, to make things easier, I often define letter centers that have the glass surface altered via glue chipping, sand carving, or acid etching. Thease areas can be cutout with an xacto knife leaving a hard edge line to follow with your brush. Once you can paint a uniform straight and curved line, you can execute most anything. I most often "over paint" the line and go back and trim the corners to a sharp corner (as shown in the Gold Leaf Techniques book).

There's a lot of other instruction already available on this forum and on the Letterheads site for doing abalone and other treatments. the best way to learn is get the basic instructions and then just do it. If you're nervous about doing a technique on your piece, make a test sample. Note on your sample what you did for future reference. (I wish I had done that.)
Start off with what you can do and expand from there. You can review the Rick Glawson step-by-step on my website for more in depth details of how I do things. There's different was of going about things. Might I suggest to just jump right in and go for it! This art takes a bit of practice, so might I suggest getting started.

There are other threads on this board that cover this same question.

...hey...this post was free of Dead Man dialog... oh well....
Larry White
That's enough for now... it's gettin' late
Town Of Machine
http://www.walljewelry.com
Catharine C. Kennedy
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:28 am
Location: Chatham Center, NY

Post by Catharine C. Kennedy »

Thanks, Larry!
I found out a looong time ago that the hardest part of anything is that first step! Been doing a lot of jumping in recentlyp just do it!
lol :lol:
Catharine C. Kennedy
Chatham Center, NY
John Lennig
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 10:53 am
Location: Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Contact:

Post by John Lennig »

Mmmmm, Boise.... that's not far....

John Lennig, doing my first PAYING glass gilding in 19 years!
"You spelled it wrong!"
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Post by Larry White »

Hey Mr. D-
Have you considered hosting any screen printing workshops?

-WB
Ron Berlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:27 am

Post by Ron Berlier »

Hi Mike -

Speaking of screens ….

Your screened jobs always look so great. What equipment and products do you use to make your screens? Do you use aluminum or wood frames? Do you have a favorite thread count for most of your work?

Ron
Ron Berlier
Wherever I go, there I am.
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Post by Mike Jackson »


Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Ron Berlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:27 am

Post by Ron Berlier »

Thanks -

I'll keep an eye out for the article. What type of equipment are you using to expose your screens? Are you using a sheet type of emulsion or coating type?

Ron
Ron Berlier
Wherever I go, there I am.
John Studden
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:40 am

Post by John Studden »

.......I like to use around 200-220 mesh for most reverse glass work, and Autotype Novastar on a roll, this will give a lot less saw tooth than direct emulsion on fine lines. The screens we buy are aluminum framed from McLogan supply & are very reasonable in price. I have found that buying wooden frames is false economy as they tend to warp after a couple of washouts & their weight is no help on window jobs...........Most of my artwork these days is done on Gerber Omega & printed on the edge for positives, with the image in reverse for glass work, this puts the linework in contact with the emulsion without an air gap when exposing.
I have used the Autotype products for around 35 years, even in England before coming here & have never had any problems, the stuff has areally long shelf life. Hope this helps, John
John Studden
Valencia Signs, California
Laura Butler
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 2:51 pm
Location: Lapeer, MI

Post by Laura Butler »

I spent 20 minutes writing my first post, went to preview, hit the back button, and BOOM it was all gone. Just as I hit the preview button I knew that I should have copied my message first. Oh well. Here's my Reader's Digest condensed version.

Ever since going to John Parker's meet and seeing glue chipping for the first time, I knew that I wanted to do lots more. I have chipped many sample pieces but don't know where to go from here. I was on the committee for the International meet in Detroit last year but was always busy when Sarah King went over Angel gilding and when Wild Bill went over glass gilding...two really good teachers and I was too busy to sit and watch.

Larry, whenever I start asking some of my older generation customers if they remember seeing this special kind of glass when they were growing up, I take them to your site.
Laura Butler
560 Oak St.
Lapeer, MI 48446
810-664-3812
Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian »

Laura,

next time , compose the text in your mail program which usually includes a spell check. Besides it takes a little more work to delete, then copy and paste into the topic reply.

If you want to do more, go here:

http://www.theletterheads.com/lhparts/r ... loads.html

and complete one of the files there. When you want to show a sample, show it in person. While at the letterheads site, look around, it has a wealth of information.

You may have missed Sarah's demonstration, but the provided instructions that come with the gilding kits will give you a good job the first time.
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
Keith Pettit
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:22 am
Location: East Sussex, England
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Post by Keith Pettit »

Catharine,
I cannot recomend Sarah King highly enough, she answered many questions I had via email long before I finally ordered my first "kit". And since then has been brilliant in help, encoragement and advice.
Remember nothing ventured nothing gained! There is so much help support and advice on tap on this forum to back up us "dabblers" how can you go wrong?!
Good luck,
Regards,
Keith
Sarah King
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Location: Oak Park IL
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Post by Sarah King »

I learned a lot from your questions, Keith, and did some experiments I would not have done if you hadn't asked. If folks didn't ask new questions - and post their questions and replies - then we'd all stay stuck in the same old rut. How fun is that?
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
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