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Glue won't adhere

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

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Brian Pacholka
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Big Rapids, Michigan

Glue won't adhere

Post by Brian Pacholka »

After blasting different samples with either 180 grit or 80 grit, I wash the glass with water and blow them dry with compressed air. I then apply Etchmasters Hide Glue about 1/8 thick. I allow this to dry over night. I then put it in my hot box (about 130 degrees F) and let it set for about a day. When I remove it, the glue is dry and rolled up, but I get very little to no chipping. Can anyone suggest where I am going wrong in my process.
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Darryl Gomes
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:04 pm
Location: Underwood, Ontario Canada

Post by Darryl Gomes »

Don't wash the glass, maybe you have oil in your air lines too that would deter the glue from grabbing. Just use a dry cloth or brush to take the dust from blasting off.
Darryl Gomes
Underwood Ontario
Ron Percell
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Post by Ron Percell »

Are you using tempered Glass, thus needing several applications.

I use 100 grit Aluminum Oxide.

Very little to no chipping sounds as if theres not enough tooth for the glue to grab.

A couple of years ago I recieved many calls from folks with the same problem, one thing they all had in common was that thier batches of glue had all been purchased 5 years previous. I'd imagine that you just purchased this glue, but wonder if it might be old inventory?

Try reducing your heat down to 110-120 and slow down the process.

Good Luck
Ron
Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian »

Brian,

a grit from 100 to 200 mesh should be fine. If you have a good even frost , and no clear bare spots that wouldn't be the source of your problem. If your glue is really 1/8" thick, it could be pulling upon on itself, rather than the glass. A thicker application would take longer to dry too.

How did you heat the glue, how did you apply to the glass, and what's the ratio of glue to water? The glue needs to be in the range of 140-145* to work best. Too cold and it won't adhere well, too hot and you ruin the glue. You want a thin even application.

The age of the glue is not a concern. A number of us are still using glue purchased from Rick 5- 10 years ago, and some recycle used glue with good results.

A good media to blast for chipping would be 100 - 150 grit silicon carbide. If you decide to do solution gilding, you can forgo washing with lye as required to do when using aluminum oxide.

If you haven't done so already, check over the green page, there's good information listed that may answer other questions you have.

Check it out here: http://www.theletterheads.com/lhparts/gluechip.html

Let us know how the second round works.
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
Patrick Mackle
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Location: Monrovia, Ca.
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Post by Patrick Mackle »

Brian,
Animal glue does not get old easily.
I store mine in big plastic trash cans. Have kept some of it since 1980. I also recycle the chipped glue many times.
Your description sounds like the glue hadn't adhered tightly to the glass.
This will happen if the proceedure is rushed, especially if you have deposited the glue thicker than required. Think of the glue as a tool reguiring gripping and leverage to pull the glass surface off, like a pair of liquid plyers. The bottom of the glue layer has to be dry enough to grip the glass tightly before the shrinking action starts. The glue on the glass surface will have less moisture than the upper surface because it's lost moisture is still passing through the upper thickess. So, as the lower level has dried to the glass the top is doing the same, just slightly delayed. Eventally the top layer will dry, and in so doing will surpass the dry state of the lower level. It will continue to dry and shrink tighter than the lower level. As the top continues to dry it will begin to pass up and shrink tighter, pulling at the lower level which is constrained to the glass, eventually pulling the bonded glass away. Like a bi-metalic metal strip bends and curls with heat in a thermostat, so does the animal glue do as it dries differentually in moisture. Like a metallic nano-muscle. This bi-layer action of the glue in its ability to pull stongly at the glass surface is evident in the tightly curled chips that fly off upon release with the glass.
Pat
Last edited by Patrick Mackle on Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brian Pacholka
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Big Rapids, Michigan

Post by Brian Pacholka »

Danny Baronian wrote:Brian,


A good media to blast for chipping would be 100 - 150 grit silicon carbide. If you decide to do solution gilding, you can forgo washing with lye as required to do when using aluminum oxide.
I am using aluminum oxide. I havent seen anything about washing with lye. Can you please point me to some information on it please.
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Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

http://www.theletterheads.com/lhparts/gluechip.html

This page is probably the most comprehensive collection of information, tips and steps about glue-chipping anywhere. You should look it over if chipping or beginning to chip.

As far as using aluminum oxide goes, I believe it works fine for the abrasion, but it leaves a very fine layer of aluminum on the glass. I don't think it causes problems with the chip itself, but if you were to silver the glass, the aluminum will tarnish the silver layer. The solution is to give it a strong lye bath to dissolve and remove the lye layer. Because of this potential extra step, I have always used silicon carbide grit.

If you got a good abrasion on the glass, I would suspect some sort of oily layer on the glass prior to applying the glue. It is nice to hear you are learning how to do this on a bunch of sample glass!

I am unaware of glue chip glue going bad over a period of time. Our glue is probably over 15 years old and still chips fine. According to Pat Mackle, the old chippers reused their glue, and they just added new to the old batch as necessary to keep the pot full.

Mike Jackson

PS, Newcomers here might want to check out the main portion of the site at:
http://www.theletterheads.com/index.html
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

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