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Subject; Etching tempered glass...

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

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john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Subject; Etching tempered glass...

Post by john hick »

Hello all,

Thanks in advance for any help here. I'd like to etch some 2" high
horizontal bands across some 3/4" full glass, tempered, entry doors at an
apartment complex.

I'd like to know what recommendations anyone could offer as to.. should I
set up some plastic and blast on site (and if so, what pressure, what grit
sand, type of media, etc)... or is there an etching gell or creme available
that would work for this (if so, what brand, type, where do I get it).

I am only looking to frost the glass to give the "etch look".. I am sure a
deep blasted etching would break the tempered doors into a million pieces
and I certainly don't need that.

I also need to etch PUSH and PULL into the glass door handle blades. These
are sperate pieces, 2" x 10" and also flat tempered glass.

With thanks,
John
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Hi John,
Now that you are a NEW member, you can used the SEARCH feature of this Forum.

Click on the Search button near the top and enter

tempered and glass

This will bring up a lot of information and threads on this topic.

Others may add to the topic here, but that will give you a lot of reading for now.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Thanks Mike, for your help this morning.

I did search some already but haven't found just what I am after. I guess I just haven't come across it yet. The tempered part is my biggest concern. So if anyone has done it..?

Thanks,
John
Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian »

John, as Mike said a search will pull up information pertaining to your questions; it has been discussed before. Vary the search criteria. Words you think will provide information don't.

If I was faced with a job like this I'd send it to Larry as he's set up to do this type of work, but I've got a feeling your a long way from Larry.

The first thing I would do is find out what their budget is, that will tell you right off if it's worth pursuing. If so, get some samples of tempered glass from your local glazier, mask and blast, going from light to aggressive. Light frosting can be accomplished, but beyond that you risk ending up with broken glass.

As far as doing it onsite I wouldn't unless the job paid extremely well. There would be more work packing up to and from the job and sealing off the area than blasting itself. If you decide to proceed, do it on T&M, but clients usually want some type of firm estimate.

Push pull plates, same thing.

180 grit sand. Etching creme will work, but for large areas it's too hard to apply and expect an even tone. For a large job quite expensive.

If you are set up for doing this work in your shop, the best thing to do is quote the job based on the client delivering the material to your shop, as well as a signed disclosure stating you are not responsible for any damage during blasting or handling unless it was carelessness on your part.

Break one piece, pay for it on your own and you loose any profit you hope to gain.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Thanks, I found a few posts. Most of them start pretty focussed and just when they get going they then just drop off. I don't think I have yet unearthed the posts where anything on the subject has been put to rest.

I guess we are all busy, and just are too busy to type it or maybe I haven't paid my dues here yet? No problem. I'm not going anywhere.

I guess I'm lucky. I'm not bidding anything.. I am the only one trusted to do any work on this particular property. The costs isn't an extreme issue.. it's just gotta look great, thats why it's only my work. I'd have someone else do it if I had the trust in them. The job is in downtown Wash DC.

Danny, you stated "Etching creme will work, but for large areas it's too hard to apply and expect an even tone"... i have to produce 8 bands at about 2" high X 36" wide. Would this be too large an area to use creme?

I can take the doors off if they need to lay flat for some reson while doing it. But I would prefer to not have to carry them far, they are 3/4" x 3' x 7' and about 375-400# each.

Anyway, I did buy some materials and am going to do a test here tonite.
Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian »

No dues to pay here that I know of. It's generally a good thing to try a search first, but if you can't find it, post it.

For the area you specified, the area is not too large for the creme. I would think vertical application would be very difficult if not impossible. Etch All, a etching creme, is a runny paste. Any glass you don't want etched will have to be masked well.

Etch All will produce a frost in 3-5 minutes. To use it on the doors, they would best be done flat. Have a glass company remove them and put them in position for your work. You don't want to be handling glass that heavy unless you have the equiptment and manpower.
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Don't do it....blasting tempered glass is a no no. The etch creme is the right solution although as Danny said if you have large areas that need an even etch you'll need to start from scratch...as in new plate glass, do the work, temper it.
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

I gotcha. I see now what you mean.

I just cremed an area 2" x 2" with vinyl around it to give a clean edge. Waited 5mins abd washed it off. It looked fabulous.. i couldn't have asked for better..exactly what I am after.

I then tried the same thing twice more on the same piece of glass. Slightly less than 5 minutes was blotchy. On one I waited about 9 minutes and that almost looked like I never etched it. I am going to clean the glass good and try a few more.

I am using armor etch.. just bought it at Michaels craft store to play with it. It's not treal runny. It would hold to a vertical but would be a mess mask the area below and to wash off with the doors in place.

Unfortunately I am also the glass guy (thats how I knew how heavy the glass is). Like I said, the guy trusts me. I installed the doors, floor closers, storefront assembly. I do all sorts of construction work on these buildings and I also happen to run a sign company. We mostly go after electric sign work, neon, and I play with routed/gold signs a bit for the locals.
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

I wonder what happens if you creme etch a spot that was already previously creme etched once? I'll tell you in a while.
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

John,
While you might be in a big hurry to get the information you need, this Forum has its own pace. That might take a while to get used to...

Many people seem to drop in and see what is going on, whether they have time to sit down and respond to a post or not. Sometimes it takes a couple of days for anyone to respond at all, if at all. I also notice there are two kinds of posts that will get minimal replies:

A: if the post is way too vague, requiring a mini book to adequately answer.
B: if the post is so specific that not many people have had any experience.

As Danny mentioned, people have a chance to read over the old posts by doing a search while waiting for a response to the new question.

Personally, I have never tried to etch tempered glass...mainly because most people have always said it is a risky proposition. Those kind of jobs don't have a high enough risk/return ratio for me. That would be my answer IF the client was even offering to bring the glass to me. Knowing they want you to do it on location, another thousand things can go wrong including the risk of a potential silicosis lawsuit from workers in the building. So, at least for me, even if I could, I wouldn't. Others can disagree! :)

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
DAVE SMITH
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:12 am
Location: ENGLAND

Post by DAVE SMITH »

Hello John.
I have had no problem etching tempered glass. I use a 220 grit alluminium oxide ,it etchs no different to ordinary glass in my opinion. The stressfull areas are not on the surface of the glass. I have not blasted on site before so be aware of the problems like Mike as stated. As you said you just want to frost the surface ,you could even try a finer grit if your not too happy with 220. Toughended glass (tempered) is 2 to 3 times more stronger than plate glass. It seems to take on depth of about 2ml -3ml anything after that is when it pops. I have seen pieces glue chipped and gilded in the back of sign trucks. Try and do some tests on some samples of the same glass for your own peace of mind. You should not have a problem with it.......... Does your tempered glass in the States come with a blasted stamp mark in the corner?
Dave
Last edited by DAVE SMITH on Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
john hick
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Well, In case anyone is wondering... 2 applications worked great. Even the blotchy areas of the earlier attempts look flawless after a second application.

So to recap.. armor etch at $24 a bottle from a craft store. Masked with regular calendared vinyl that was getting old (had it about 12 years). Mask the balance of the entire piece to avoid any etching from the wash water (to be safe... but I didn't bother), and 2 applications @ precisely 5 minutes before starting the fresh water wash.

To note - On one test, I scrubbed a little while washing it off. This seemed to yield a slightly smeared look. When just washed with water stream, it looks great, nicely frosted.

Doug; I appreciate it, and I agree, taking a sand blaster to these doors is too risky for me. But I am too late to beat the tempering. The glass is tempered over 200 miles form the job and 300 from my shop. We had to have it tempered first. I also noticed in some of the other posts that it was recommended to have the glass tempered after blasting or etching. I buy manufacturer direct from 2 different temper plants on the east coast (there are only a handfull nationwide) and neither would let plate leave the plant and be returned for the ovens after any blasting or creme etching. They both told me of stories about the chore of cleaning out the ovens when the glass breaks. Maybe my suppliers are weenies, I don't know, but thats what I got.
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Thanks for the input Dave. The tempered glass form my suppliers does always have an etched looking stamp. If you look close at these (in the states), many of them are not actually sand etched. It is "stamped" with a small screen printing like device at the plant. The plants ( that I deal with ) load a 2 part product by Ferrow Glass Coatings (sp? I think) to do their stamping for the day. I have played with the Ferrow product and never got adequate results for what I do here, it's no good without the equipment.

Mike, I guess I rubbed you wrong? It just seemed like my first response from you was curt. I had tried to register here half the morning. I saw some previous posts regarding the subject... no one has directed me to the ones i missed, the ones that address and come to a conclusion of some sort about etching tempered glass, you know. For every green light I find, there is a red. Risks of a lawsuit? Might be starting a new topic but as soon as I leave the house to do anything that risk increases exponentially... so I guess we aren't be watering the lillies with the wash water eh? <-- sarcasm
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Image

John,
You posted asking about tempered glass. I didn't feel I had an answer you would want (my answer is I wouldn't do it), so I gave you a very specific set of instructions to look up topics already stored on this forum. I did the search before I made the post and saw quite a few posts on the topic...screen grab of the results above. I will admit I didn't go through and read each one of them, but I remember the topic has been discussed regularly here.

I didn't make the second post until I got the impression you were growing impatient:
I guess we are all busy, and just are too busy to type it or maybe I haven't paid my dues here yet? No problem. I'm not going anywhere.
You made your original post 10:15 AM. At 3:50 PM, you made the quote above.

Here's the deal. There are only around 300 total registered users at this site, spread out over three or four years. Of that, some are duplicates having logged in with different email addresses and user names. Of the remaining, roughly half of them are inactive. Of the active readers, only a percentage have had any experience at all doing any kind of glass etching. Of that group, only a few might have checked in on the site. Of that group, only a few might have clicked on your post. I have a feeling several of the remaining qualified forum readers may have been willing to stop and answer the question later in the evening once they took care of their business...and maybe had time to ponder how they might answer your question. At this point, I believe there might be only half a dozen readers qualified to answer your questions, and it now appears most of them have. Knowing the site is free, I'd say most get more than their money's worth of return in a relatively short period of time. If any of this sounds "curt", please go back and read your quote above.

This will be my last post in this regard. Good luck with your project.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Well... none of the links referenced in your screen shot amounted to much for me Mike, except for the top one... that one was concluded right here. I think I still appreciate the effort. I'm not sure if this effort was to try to help me or to try and prove something? ... but the last word has been spoken... and thats fine by me, with or without a hug.

Thanks to all who responded to help me!
Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian »

Well, I'll tell you John, I was going to let this fade away, but your last post begs a response.

Firstly, everyone is invited to check out the search feature, not just you, and certainly not just on this forum. I get the impression you took it as a personal affront, as in 'maybe I haven't paid my dues here yet?', and 'just too busy to type it' - as in everyones too busy to drop what their doing to answer your question.

Had you not been too busy to type in tempered and glass as suggested, you would have had an immediate answer. You would have also seen that Mike was just as 'curt' with Raymond Chapman when he suggested a search too.

But the most egregious was in your last post - "none of the links referenced in your screen shot amounted to much for me Mike, except for the top one... that one was concluded right here."

John, had you actually typed in the search criteria, you'd know that statement couldn't be farther from the truth.

I typed in 'tempered and glass'. In well under a minute I had numerous posts that contained that criteria, located Raymond's question, copied and pasted them into another document. And yes, I used the same search pane available to everyone else.

You will find some of the most knowledgeable people on this board that are willing to help and share when they can. Everyone is welcome and to participate, but it sometimes requires some work and patience on your part. You will also find that no one has anything to prove - to you - or anyone else. Information provided is usually first hand info that works. It's yours - to accept or reject.

The entire thread regarding tempered glass is listed below. It will be deleted in a couple of days since it's already on the board.

From inception this forum has welcomed everyone while remaining cordial and truthful. Should the thread continue on it's southward journey, it will be locked.



\ Tempered Glass
I have a client who wants to etch the glass in his home entrance doors. The glass will be 3/8" thick, tempered, and with a 1" beveled edge - two pieces about 25" x 50" with side lights of 6" x 36".

He wants the head of a Brangus bull in each of the larger pieces (that's what paid for the house) and some trim work around the edges (with corner treatments from Golden Era Studios).

I've done a search for etching tempered glass and didn't come up with anything, but I'm pretty sure this has been discussed here before.

Nonetheless, is this possible without breaking the glass? I would also like to talk him into some glue chipping, but I'm not sure that is possible either. The glass has not been cut, beveled or tempered yet.

I've heard that it might be possible to do all the various etching and glue chipping and then have the glass tempered. Is this possible?

Thanks in advance to all the experts here.

Raymond Chapman


Hi Raymond,
No doubt the glass piece will be a beautiful piece of art if you use digital clip art from Golden Era Studios! (shameless self promotion)

I looked back using the SEARCH feature of this board and found a post by Larry White called Goin' Large Again.
https://handletteringforum.com/forum ... t=tempered

There was some discussion of tempered glass on that post.

Other than the help with the post, I can't help much with first hand expericneces on this topic.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson


_________________
Mike Jackson
Golden Era Studios
Jackson Hole, WY
Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:20 pm


Raymond,

as in Larry's post, from Mike's link, tempered glass can be glue chipped but the results are not as good as annealed glass. If you want to include glue chipping, do so after beveling prior to tempering. When checking with companies that temper glass, ask about their failure rate in the event you need to produce two pieces to make sure you get one that is acceptable. If Larry's following this, he can jump in and add more, as he has his done on a regular basis.

As far as blasting tempered glass, you can frost it, but no deep carving. Beyond frosting is a pile of thousands of pieces of glass.

Danny




Raymond Chapman

Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 209
Location: Temple. Texas









Thanks
Thanks for the post Mike. That was the one I had in mind but my search did not pull it up. Must be the way you hold your mouth.

We will be blasting with aluminum oxide at a very low pressure. Is that still dangerous? It would seem that the pressure from glue chipping would be more hazardous than the etching.

I think we will get the glass already tempered and take a chance. Being in such a small town, it probably would take forever to get the glass shipped back and forth.

We now have a small blast cabinet and a glue chip box....just like you big boys.

Raymond,
I've done glue chipping and frosting prior to tempering. There is always the chance that it will blow up during the tempering process, especially since the chipping will weaken the glass somewhat. You just need to be aware of the risk and, like Danny suggested, either do two pieces or allow enough time to do a second one if the first one fails.
As far as etching tempered glass, I have done it many times with no problem. I used to turn my pressure way down and hold my nozzle way back from the glass. (It also helps to hold your breath) That always increased the production time substantially. Also, if there were large areas to frost, it took a long time to get a good even frost over the entire area.
Then I spoke with Butch Young about it and she said that she blasts tempered glass all the time at fairly high pressures and has no problems. That bolstered my confidence, so I took a piece of tempered glass and did some experimenting. I made sure first to cover the back of the entire glass with transfer tape so it would hold together when it broke. Then I masked the front and cut a design. It took several minutes going over the same area at about 40 psi and getting within a couple of inches before it finally broke.
Since then, I still get no deeper than a light surface etch but I've turned my pressure up to about 30-35psi and hold my nozzle about 6" from the glass. I don't even hold my breath anymore.
Dan
P.S. If you have tempered glass to experiment with, try it first. See what you are comfortable with.
Hi Raymond!

In my foolings around with blasting tempered glass I have found that it is not so much the pressure at which you blast but the heat generated from it that causes most problems.

Do not hang out in one area to long while you are blasting and Yes it will be timely to get get a nice even frosting. I kinda treat it like painting with a cup sprayer. Nice smooth even strokes back and forth. Don't forget to take a breath every now and then

Have fun and post a pic when completed please!

Jeff


Hi Raymond.
I have been blasting tempered glass at high presure without any problems. As Jeff mentioned, keep the nozzle moving on the blasting area.
Have you thought about laminated glass? I work with this for architectural jobs. This works fine for chipping and acid etching, I have even started using it for brilliant cutting. 6ml or 8ml in thickness.
Good luck
Dave

S



Larry White

Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 300
Location: Machine









Might as well chime in...
Hi Raymond,
To confer with the others, we blast tempered glass regularly. a 1/2" nozzle at 40-65psi depending on glass thickness. On 3/8" glass, it is possible to do about a .030" depth carve, typically in smallish areas. As previuosly stated, glue chipping looks better when executed on annealed glass. The chipping pattern is crisper and more defined. On tempered glass, it comes out a bit smoother with a kind of leathery apperance. It is possible to temper after the work is done. I have done this quite a few times, without failure. Easy on the depth carve if you're tempering after.

The large Milestone Manufacturing #3 sign was all done on tempered glass to give you an idea of what the chip might look like.




Raymond Chapman

Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Posts: 209
Location: Temple. Texas









Thanks
Thanks to all of you for the quick responses. You give me confidence to proceed full steam ahead. Since I consider each of you a master at this stuff, I believe I am getting the best advice available - straight from the horse's mouth.

This client is very conseervative and doesn't want too many "fancy" things. I 've been talking to him and showing photos and samples and he is still stuck on "just something simple"...so there may not be too much to show in the end.

I'll keep you posted, though.
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
john hick
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:44 am

Post by john hick »

Danny,

I feel like I am being "flamed" in a gentleman's club.

If you keep the info I posted above, thats fine. It's no epiphany.
Feel free to delete it if you wish.

You guys take care. I won't be back.
Russ McMullin
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Location: Tooele, UT
Contact:

Post by Russ McMullin »

I think the cordial approach would be to answer the question first, and then suggest a search in the archives for more information. Shouting that someone is a NEW member and should SEARCH first is not my idea of a pleasant welcome. That was rude. It's Mike's forum and he can do what he wants with it, but John didn't deserve the badgering he got from Mike, especially when that bridge had been crossed and progress was being made on the topic. Repetition is the nature of forums.
Patrick Mackle
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Location: Monrovia, Ca.
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Post by Patrick Mackle »

Hi John,
I read your original post just now, and ran through some of the replies only to see that it sadly ended with your stating that you would not be back.
I was very sorry to see that! This is really a GOOD GROUP of skilled people, but a keyboard can make responses seem short if the words aren't well chosen.
I do on site etching and would have wished that I had visited the board earlier, but I've been beyond busy.
I wonder if we can delete some of the sour posts and return to the positive ones.
In any case I would like to give you some positive information to aid in your job at hand.
I have a website at www.decoglasspro.com
I just finished an on site job on the 11th floor of an office building while the owners stood over my shoulder.
You couldn't ask for a more stressful situation where everything must go smoothly.
Not only were they impressed, they requested my business cards to hand out to other tenants in the building.
I try to avoid tenting whenever possible and designed a simple setup I call the "Mackle Bucket" or "Magic Bucket".
Got to run now, but hope to chat soon.

Pat
Real Mercier
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:11 am
Location: West Springfield. MA

Post by Real Mercier »

I recently was asked to do a job for a nail salon. The owner had a divider but wanted it higher. I added 2 pieces of 1/4" tempered glass. Both 16" x 120" . I etched a border for the full length. The sandblasting was no problem. I have sandblasted several pieces of tempered glass with no problems.
BTW, the pattern was from the Main Street Collection. The owner of the shop loved it and is very happy.

As for how the responses were perceived, when you can only read words, HOW YOU read them will deterrmine how the response is received. Hopefully he will come back and take anothe rlook and see that everyone WAS trying to help.

Hope this helps.

Real Mercier
Real Mercier
West Springfield, MA
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Even though I said I wouldn't keep responding, maybe I should.

As someone mentioned, it might be appropriate for one of the administrators to cull out some of the unnecessary rhetoric in this thread. I hesitate to ever do that to other people's writing, mainly an issue of freedom of speech. I don't mind deleting some of my writing, but if I did that, some of the followup comments wouldn't make sense. When faced with this issue, I'd prefer to either leave the post intact or delete it altogether. It would be easier for me to do if I were not personally responsible for some of the comments.

M. Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
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