Gold leaf sign

Robert Schwieger · Post by **Robert Schwieger** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:51 am

I am curious about a listing on ebay that pictures an F. W. Woolworth glass sign identifying a store's entrance. It is listed as turn of the century glass gold leaf sign. I am wondering about the word "ENTRANCE" which is done in Optima font. Optima was created in the l950's. Any thoughts?

Bob

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:49 pm

http://i9.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/be/f2/4fb3_1.JPG

Bob,
I think it is a bogus sign. Actually, there is another one just like it on ebay right now. I don't think the old craftsmen would have lettered and spaced it so poorly. The Century letterstyle is not really accurate to the old signs I found while searching for F.W. Woolworths, much less the optima font used on the bottom.

Buyer beware!

Mike Jackson

EDIT: I created a link to the lady's image earlier, which made the image show up here. I heard second hand that the lady is furious that I stole her photo, which I didn't. I only included a link to her photo. I just took off the code that makes it show up here, but you can click the link and still view it. I don't believe creating a link to a photo is illegal anywhere on the Internet. Still, I think the sign is a fake.

But, that's only one person's opinion.

Patrick Mackle · Post by **Patrick Mackle** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:10 pm

Looks like repo work. The periods are hanging way out in space as if automatically kerned by a PC.
Pat

James Kelly · Post by **James Kelly** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:02 am

For a signwriter to produce such perfect lettering it doesn't make sense that the kerning is so poor. Without a doubt, a repro job, probably not gold leaf either.

Wayne Osborne · Post by **Wayne Osborne** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:33 pm

Who they kidin'-...and we all know its called "Woolies"anyway!:lol:

James Kelly · Post by **James Kelly** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:30 pm

Wayne Osborne wrote:Who they kidin'-...and we all know its called "Woolies"anyway!:lol:

That's just because you're too lazy to write all the letters!

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:06 pm

Ouch....just saw the picture. It's an outright awful job.

James Warwick · Post by **James Warwick** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:38 pm

Reezults.......

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/old-vi ... enameZWDVW

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:57 pm

I just checked and the auction ended at $220 for the sign and frame.

While I don't think this is a vintage sign, it may have been sold to that eBay dealer as a vintage piece. And, there is a "possibility" that some Woolworth's store had a sign maker produce the sign for one or their entrances at some point in the past 20 years. It "could" have actually come from a Woolworth's store. The fact there were two showing up at the same time on eBay adds some more questions. How many Entrances does a typical Woolworth's store have?

It looks like it was layed out with an old Signmaker 4B.

Mike Jackson

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:04 pm

I hope the frame was "Worth" it. Mike....I knew I could count on someone to put a positive spin on it. I have no idea of the technology used to create it but "it sure ain't the real thang!"

Robert Schwieger · Post by **Robert Schwieger** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:57 pm

Thanks for the informed input regarding the Woolworth glass sign. It is also interesting that the same piece went last week for over $400 and the seller noted that they would only accept money order as payment and there would be NO return privileges. Ouch.

Bob

Patrick Mackle · Post by **Patrick Mackle** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:21 pm

I would love to do a test on the paint for lead residue or simply press the tip of an Exacto knife hard into the edge paint and watch closely whether it breaks bond or indents, indicating its freshness. As Mike said, I suspected they may have been produced in the sixties, or maybe even six days ago. They're missing that special look of early work.
Pat

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:43 pm

Pat,
The old Signmaker 4 came out in about 1982 or so. That was the first plotter/cutter. I don't think Gerber came out with Optima for a while past that, so I doubt the sign is any older than 1984, and possibly a lot more recent than that. Woolworths changed their logo quite a few times over the past century. The Century Bold style used in the job is fairly close to the old lettering, but not quite dead-on.

Mike Jackson

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 12:11 am

Just to add, I have in my archives somewhere a pounce pattern for the transom entrance signs. Each principle store had at least two front entrances (double doors at about 7' wide) and one side entrance near the lunch counter (single door) and mostly a corner location. Some small town Woolworth's were smaller. This sign is only barely similar to the side entrance, if memory serves me correcty. The gold was two tone with a black outline and the background was stippled deep Alizaron Crimson red which is similar to carmine. The lettering was similar to Clarendon for FWW though more rounded into the serifs. Entrance was old style hand lettered thick and thin. We did a bunch of these in the late 50's into the '60's all over Colorado, mostly replacing broken originals, patterns taken from those I guess because I don't think Dad did originals. Too bad someone paid good money for fakes. While these may have been in an actual store, I doubt it since they all closed 10 years ago and were wanning for at least 10 before that. I agree with Mike that the layout is right out of Gerber although it might be from an early software version which still looked like a 4a cut it out from onboard fonts. Optima came with my 4b whenever that was, but not with my 4a.

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:16 pm

Here's another one.I went back and looked at the first one.It had thicker black borders at the top and bottom.It will be interesting to see if this go's for as much.

Roderick

Bruce Horton · Post by **Bruce Horton** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:53 pm

I just did an eBay search for "woolworth sign" and came up with this little glue chipped jewel.

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-general-country ... dZViewItem

It's interesting to note in the item description, the reference to other "questionable" Woolworth and Coca-Cola signage.

Also, under the same search came up some old 2-sided screen printed lunch counter cards that really take me back. These could be reproductions as well. Hard to tell without having them in your hands.

Bruce Horton · Post by **Bruce Horton** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:17 pm

Sorry about the URL link I pasted earlier. Can't control my cursor.
It should be:

Woolworth 5 Cent Counter

Bruce Horton

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:44 pm

That one might really be a vintage piece...maybe even a Rawson and Evans piece.
Mike Jackson

PS, if you ever mess up a link, you can go back in and EDIT that post without having to make a new one.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:34 pm

That one is more like it. Don't see an R&E bug but smaller signs sometimes did not have them, expecially quantitiy production pieces. I think the "tell" is the level of deterioration, which is hard to fake.

Bruce Horton · Post by **Bruce Horton** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:01 pm

The little "5-cent Counter" sign on eBay went for $535.

5-cent Counter glass sign

Larry White · Post by **Larry White** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:09 pm

Here is a picture of one of these that Rick Glawson had done a restoration on. That scroll work looks a lot like R&E.

James Warwick · Post by **James Warwick** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:11 am

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/old-vi ... enameZWDVW

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:37 am

It's the same seller with the same photos. EITHER, they sold the first one and got it back, the buyer never paid and they are re-selling it, OR they somehow have a supply of those "rare, vintage" signs to sell. If it happens to be the latter, I wonder what the odds are that they could take the exact same shot of two different signs about a month apart?

BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!

Mike Jackson

James Warwick · Post by **James Warwick** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:19 pm

It must have been a warehouse find !!

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/old-vi ... enameZWDVW

Post by **Danny Baronian** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:57 pm

Well, for kicks I sent a message to the seller through ebay's ask seller a question.

I asked what the actual age of the sign was and if they had a quantity of the Woolworth signs, would they consider a discounted price for the lot.

Never received a reply.

Either they found a pile of them that had been made up or they had the local vinyl shop make up a quantity. Signs are estimated to be worth between $ 1,600 - 2,100, and that doesn't include the buyers premium that's added on. Anyone want's one at those prices, give me a call; no hidden costs, no buyers premium.

Between GoAntiques and ebay, they don't seem the least bit concerned about fraud.

Photo's the same. They use the same one for the whole stack!

Danny

Gold leaf sign

Gold leaf sign

Gold Sign

FWW

Gold leaf sign

Its Back.....

Another one found...