Adhesion of goldleaf and backup paint.

[erik winkler]

Ladies and gentleman,

Is it normal that mine goldleaf, and back-up paint comes loose after aplying a mask for a few minutes on a shop window?
The gold-leaf ánd back-up paint dried for two weeks before aplying the masking tape...
Before gilding etc i cleaned the window with Thinner, Acrysol and Bon-Ami.

Or is there something i missed?

Now i am getting home, because i am very tired and do not want to fall a sleep with my newly arived book of William Sutherland "The Art & Craft of Sign-writing".
This week of European soccer and beer drives me insane... and i am not even a sports fan....
All the way from the Netherlands: yours truly,
Erik with the non-sticking goldleaf & paint.

[Jerry Berg]

Erik, The only thing holding the gold to the glass is the gelatin. The back up enamel backs up the gold so it won't be transparent and to give it a mirror quality. It also protects it. You further need to use a clear over the back up to help in protection as well. The clear should cover and slightly overlap the back up onto the glass for protection. A mask can take your work off of the glass if it grips well.

[John Studden]

I don't understand why you are masking over a finished Gold job on glass, Once dry there would be bo reason for that...unless I'm missing something. Even a very low tack tape could ruin your back-up & pull parts off............

[erik winkler]

I realize that my question is a little bit strange.
But since i have not been able to see you guys work.
I try to experiment and find ways to plan gilding, painting, gilding and painting.
Therefore i deleberatly try to test everything that is possible and so learn (the hard way unfortunatly) what to do and what not to do.

After cleaning i applied a double cut mask.
Since i want to make a matt goldleaf center, outlined with a shiny goldleaf and for contrast an outer outline of black paint.
From this mask i peeled of the most outer outline and painted it black (formely described as back-up paint).
After letting it dry, i begin making the gelatine size.
Then i peel the most inner spaces and put some oil size in them.
Them after 5 minutes i peel of the last remaining outline of the mask on wich i will watergild.
After aprox an hour (since it is one shot hour size) i apply my gelatine size with a fraction of detergent to break the water-tension and start watergilding.
The centre will be a matt finish and the outline will be a shiny finish.
After a light burrnish a apply a second watergild.
Then after a few hours i coat the whole thing with clearcoat and then peel of the entire remaining mask.

Because i am still experimenting i tried to do some hand painted drop shadows as a final stage and therefor reapplied a new mask.
This is where not alone my goldleaf came of but also my first applied black outline (back-up) paint.
Is this normal and should i never use this way of planning again?
Because even the black paint came of! Or is it just a bad way of preparing/cleaning the glass?

[John Studden]

Never mask over existing Gold Leaf to add a drop shadow...you could have just placed a paper pattern of the same design on the other side of the glass, taped down & over to the left or right & simply painted on the inside, maybe adding a line of fineline tape to give you a finish edge......

Are you letting the varnish center dry completely......I always use synthetic coating varnish for this stage & let it dry overnight, then flatten with 0000 steel wool before water gilding, if you are not rubbing the varnish it will not appear a total matte, although you could use quick rubbing varnish to speed it up 15-30 minutes..........then water gild....

[Kelly Thorson]

Hi Erik,
I too have learned a whole lot by the school of mistakes. Don't ever be embarassed by that. Inventions come when those without preconceived notions explore. The fault was likely not in your preparation, the adhesive on the mask simply created a stronger bond with the gold and masking than the gelatine did with the glass and gold. Now I don't have to try that one. I think sometimes when you have done things for a long time you forget how much trial and error is involved, but that's the best part as far as I'm concerned.
Is there much glass work done in the Netherlands or is it a "foreign" thing? If you are self taught are you learning mostly from books and the internet? If so which books and resources have you been using? I'm always hungry for new resources.

[erik winkler]

Master John,
I will never ever do that again, really sir

Kelly,
I have just recently (feels like 10 times too long) found the intrest because of wanting to make sandblasted wooden signs i saw some 15 years ago on my vacation with my parents in Florida.
Looked it up on the internet, came a cross http://www.letterheadfonts.com/ and saw some beautifull works in the gallery.
Since than i am extra fascinated by the old school designs, fonts, gold leafing, woodcarving, sandblasting, primers, one shot paints, oil size, gelatine size, hide glue for glass chipping, angel gilding, glass, marble, painting, signwriting by brush, calligraphy and so on and so on.

So for the last six months i haven't stopped thinking about those things and after work researched and researched untill late.
Last few weeks i have not seen my bed before 2 o'clock at night. It is getting to show it's negative results on my daily work at http://www.ferrywinkler.nl.

Where do i research?
This letterheadforum is very helpfull.
Youtube can be helpfull, i have made an playlist with all interesting video clips http://nl.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=11AA404ADF1F91C0
Books: well i bought to many already, they are at home, so i can't give you the titles: about signmaking in wood, signmaking in general, glue chipping glass, gilding, how to make medeival manuscripts and gilding etc.
Dvd's: Kenth Smith has two dvd's, a very good dvd about gilding on cars etc by a pinstriper, 3 woodcarving dvd's by a woodmaker and chris pye.
Looking at the work of guys and girls who post here.

And my only reason to keep on living : A workshop i will do at Dave Smiths.
He said to be cool, not to want to much in a short period of time, but it is hard....
I have planned to really rock and start creating after i have attended Dave's workshop.
This because i realize that 1 minute with an experienced craftsman is the the same as 2 months of hard, bone-breaking researching by your sefl.
This gilding etc. is there for centuries, glass chipping for almost 130 years, why do you and i have to invent the wheel all over again.
I see it as a positive thing we can share knowligde on the web, but learning and working intensly can only be acheived by a master pupil kind of way.

Erik