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Laminating Wood Panels

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Rick Sacks
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Laminating Wood Panels

Post by Rick Sacks »

I was reading in Sign Craft where Joe "Chips" said he glued up a panel with the cup in the grain in each board aiming toward the sun to prevent warping. I've always tried to alternate the grain directions, and usually find the sun to hit one side in the early day and the other side late day. What do you find to be most dependable?
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Post by Danny Baronian »

Alternating grain.

The same way furniture and wood craftsman have done for centuries.

If you've ever glued up a piece 8/4" x 4' wide and end up with a 1" cup in the middle you'll never glue up without alternating grain again. And the other thing Rick surely does is clamp up with clamps on both sides, not just one. Do one side only and you'll start out with a good cup.

You might be able to do that with quarter sawn lumber, but for the majority of sign blanks in question, quarter sawn would be cost prohibitive. Not only is the cost considerably higher, the selection of quarter sawn species is limited.

Danny
Last edited by Danny Baronian on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joe cieslowski
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Why do boards cup?

Post by joe cieslowski »

I'd be interested to see what others say on this subject before I explain why I do what I do.

However, :roll: , ;) Could someone first explain why boards cup in the first place and do they always cup in the same direction?

BTW, I never realised that somone actually reads these articles.......I always thought they just look at the pictures. ;)

Thanks,

Joe,

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Post by Rick Sacks »

Joe, if you have something to say, I'll read it. I don't read everything everyone has to say, but you've earned my respect over the years. Thanks for the article. I'm awaiting your reason for what you do. Ciao
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Post by Scooter Marriner »

I read Joe's article too, and wondered about that point.

My dim memory (and I'm prepared to believe its all wrong) is that wood cups towards the inside (core) of the annular rings. The cells in the wood are not square shaped, they are tapered, and a living tree - as well as the harvested lumber - swells and contracts constantly. If the cells weren't tapered, the tree would rip itself apart as it "breathes".

Cupping is just the cells doing what they always did, and is most pronounced in plainsawn lumber. Quartersawn lumber is much less prone to cupping, because the annular rings are perpendicular to the face of the plank or board. It isn't easy to find quartersawn lumber 'round here. There's a whole different issue about the aesthetics of plainsawn wood versus quartersawn when you're sandblasting or staining to reveal the grain.

Like Rick, I was taught that alternating the facing (lay) of the rings helps keep a panel flat. Half the boards are pulling it one way, and half the other way, so on the whole it stays flat.

There's a south-facing sandblasted cedar sign that I ride past frequently near me. The boards are aligned horizontally. In full light, the whole panel is cupped as a piece - all hunched forward and looking like its going to fall over. When it isn't in sun, it flattens back out. (That's a lot of movement the paint has to go through as well, and it seems to be aging prematurely).
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Post by Rick Sacks »

Most of my signs remain flat, however, I've had a couple over the years that I turned around to bring them back to the original intent.
I also find it interesting that in New England a sign can be carved from sugar pine and it will last. I've made a few here and in five years they were punky and rotten on the inside and the paint on the surface still looked good. If you grabbed the sign your fingers could go quite deep. Redwood is native for us and it lasts in our environs.

Oh, hi Scooter....howzit in Oakland?
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Thanks for the compliment Rick and the input, Scooter and Danny.

First let me say that I have been fortunate (or coursed ;) ) with an education both in the classroom and in the shop in wood technology. BS and MS in wood technology Education and 7 years in a model and pattern shop. We sometimes had to mic work in the pattern shop.....and this was HAND work.

Why wood warps.........simply because of uneven absorbing of moisture on the two faces of a board. Basically, that's it. (Scooter has the right idea but you don't really have to get down to the celluar level to understand.) The side that absorbs more moisture will expand and cause a cup on the opposite side. Here's a shot of a cupped board. BTW I call the cup side the side that would be a cup as you view the end grain....the top side of this board.

Image

Pretty dramatic!

Here is a shot with the straight edge tilted to the right....

Image

Hmmmm, that area looks pretty flat.

Here's the left side....

Image

Hmmmm, it's pretty flat too.

It's obvious to me that the expansion really just occors near the center. (boy, I spell lousey!!!)

Two things are evident here; one is that flat (or Plain) sawn wood will cup. Second, (if you remove the center section) the wood on each side remains flat. With the center removed, you have, in essense, a quarter sawn board. That is why you guys get good results with quarter sawn boards. YEA!!!! :)

OK, now I have to adress my method. I love the pattern that flat sawn wood presents. Quarter sawn is pretty boring. Like with blasting, the presentation of the grain makes for a pretty dynamic ground for our signs. Like this.....

Image

This would look very different in quarter sawn. So now I have to deal with the cupping. I know which side of the board will expand, (the cup side as I defined it) If I glue up my boards with the cup sides all on the same side of the sign and position that side to face the sun, it will be kept dry from the heat. The back side (I call it the cool side). This creates the balance I need (which as I stated in the article PREVENTS the cupping).

Image

Likewise for a sign that is attached to a building.....the cup side always faces out (The micro enviornment in back always creats a cool side.)

Danny has a sign sample that he agreed to test for me in the CA sunshine....it's 7+ inches wide, flat sawn with the "cup" side out. He's had it for about 3 years. I would expect the clear finish is failing by now but it should still be pretty flat........if it's not.....somebody hand me a towel to get this egg off my face.

In essence, that's it.

Rick, I have no clue why any piece of wood would rot under a protective coating. If it can't get wet, it can't rot.....that's what I always believed....evidence 100+ year old barns. The only rot is near the bottom of the boards here it gets wet a lot.

Image

Here is a mahogany sign that is 22 years old....I didn't make the original. It was glued up as I suggest but it was hung with the cup side facing north. It was cupped badly! The original lettering was painted. I was asked to refinish the sign (coated with solid stain) and carve and gild the letters. It now hangs with the "cup" side facing south and it's as flat as can be.

Image

Let me state in ending that I've learned over many years that there is no absolutes when it comes to working with wood....EXCEPT....wood will always move....always. If you allow for it, you will succed....try to stop it and you will loose.

In the end, if you have found a method that works for you.....don't change. If you want to try something different, this will work. (Probly :roll: ) :)

That's it.

Danny, I'd love to debate your "hundreds of years" statement but it would be way more fun over a six pack than here. :)

Joe,

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Post by joe cieslowski »

I'd just like to add.......253 hits in one day???????

On this "glass and gold" forum??????

Time to alter my perceptions AGAIN!!!! :?

Thanks,

Joe,

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Dale Feicke
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Post by Dale Feicke »

I've noticed over the years that a lot of furniture, particularly tabletops and cabinet doors are laminated out of narrow boards....kind of like a bowling alley. I would imagine that would eliminate a lot of this cupping phenomenon. It just seems like lumber in general is getting worse and worse in quality as time goes by. I don't guess we'll see anyone making a tabletop out of HDU anytime soon.
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Post by Rick Sacks »

Thank you Joe.
In the fifth photo, the one with your unfinished glued up panel, am I understanding you right that the side up would be the one to face the sun?
Why would that side absorb more moisture? If the board is well enameled, How would the moisture get in there? I've seen well sealed panels warp.
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Dale, Like redwood, old growth tres are a thing of the past. Our forests here in the NE have been regenerating for about 100 years or less. As a result, the trees aren't that big but they are harvested anyway, resulting in a lot of narrow boards.....mostly flat sawn (you need a big log to get quarter sawn).

Rick, you are right about the fifth photo... Now, no finish can prevent the movement of moisture between the wood and the atmosphere. That is a fact!!! And that's a good thing. The finish must breath along with the wood or the wood (or the moisture in it) would just force the finish off.

Now the why...(here we do need to get down to the cellular level). When you look at the first photo, the small area near the center of the board where the square is sitting, a lot of spring wood is exposed. This wood has large pores(or cells)....lotsa air, little fiber. Under it, is the summer wood....small tight pores...little air, lotsa fibers (these two rings make up one annual ring). Like a sponge, the spring wood quickly absorbes and passes off moisture so you can see why this area would expand and shrink quickly. (The spring wood is therefore also softer and when blasted, it erodes quickly leaving the summer wood standing up to form your ridges). Directly opposite this area on the bottom side of the board, you will notice that the summer wood is near the surface.....very dense and does not absorbe or pass moisture quickly, so it hardly moves. So one side expands quickly and the other side doesn't. Hence this dramatic cupping. Actually you can see the annual rings more clearly in the 5th photo. This may also explain the reason for the dramatic cupping in the sign that Scooter described earlier.

I sure hope I described it clearly. If not, fire away.....I'll see what I can do to help

Understanding the basic properties of any material is necessary to succesfully use that material. Like a lot of things, ignore the basics at your peril.

I hope this was helpful.

Joe,

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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Oh this one is interesting....I'm not sure how Joe has had luck with the "cup up" method as I only did that once....especially in pine. I also alternate with one plank up the other cup down. I have heard of some cabinet makers that do otherwise so when it warps (thats a fer sure thing) it doesn't "wave" and they draw it into position. We however have bigger(outdoor) worries and since redwood is no longer available up here I have been trying other woods as well. Cedar lasts but is no fun to work with and pine is wonderful but when on the side of a building or has multiple laminated layers it will rot. I got sick of seeing older signs show-up with damage/rot deep inside and still fresh looking on the out. I'm speaking of many layered things rather than a single "slab" glue up. If I had the cupped boards in the early foto's I would cut them to either quarter (grain straight up and down) or riff (the first third of the pictured board) and glue them in the way mentioned earlier. The one thing I've noticed is that a simple aluminum flashing (roofers style) goes a long way to adding to the life but that of course is for the wall mounted things. I also have used sugar pine, with some reservations, because any rot that occurs is usually because various microbes are already present.....before you get to the work. Like Joe I suspect this is more prevailent in new growth rather than old, and also might be due to the kiln drying. I know up here the moisture levels need to be just so before it can be imported. In consequence the cell structure is damaged. Anywho....sugar pine is usually gobbled up by the window manufacturers before I get a chance.
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Ya gotta know yer limitations.

Post by joe cieslowski »

Doug brings this topic to a new direction.

Doug, I've had most of the same results you spoke of in years past when wood was the only substraight choice for carved signs. To protect from "back rot" the sign and any layers added on (that weren't glued together before coating) would only survive if mounted with stand offs to allow for air circulation.
That said, I would not use pine for any large commercial sign, today. If I had to use wood it would be mahogany. Otherwise, HDU.

The methods I use for glue-ups as I described are only used for small signs (under 3' wide).....which adressed this starting topic. It has been and continues to be a unique offering in my product line with the customer well aware of the maintainence requirements. I am not suggesting that this is some fool proof method to use wood for most sign work.....I don't think I ever even suggested that. (I will, in any future articles that I write, speak to these limitations).

Doug, thanks for taking this topic on a necessary turn. This needed to be aired.

My methods and materials will only be succesful in certain situations......ya gotta know the limitations.

Joe,

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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Hi Joe....only recently discovered that we are talking about an article for a mag....Signcraft if I read correctly. I think I'll try a test with some woods in the near future. Personally I would worry even if the plank was small. Will keep everyone posted when I get that under-way. I don't doubt your methods I only wonder why I don't get the same results. This brings us to an old/new conversation also. Laminate vs bonding. I read quite a number of years ago the west system directions for prep etc. and was surprised to discover that "bonding" and "laminating" are two quite different things. Sort of like the problem Mike had with his curtains. The directions west system offers for edge to edge gluing is/was different from the instructions for surface to surface (laminating). It sure would make life easier if we all spoke the same language and some terms were less obscure.
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Joe, I was at a friend's house tonight for a bar-b-que. They had a small wooden porch on each side of the house. After I stuffed myself on shish-ka-bobs, I walked around them looking at the cupping. The example you show of the cupped board seemed opposite of what I remembered reading in the old Fine Woodworking magazines and in the "how to build a deck"
Grains
Lumber has either flat or vertical grain depending on how it was cut from the log. Garden grades are sold with mixed
grain patterns. To minimize cupping and grain raising, flat grain lumber should be used with the “bark side” up or facing out. Vertical grain lumber provides the smoothest surfaces for railings and benches.
This quote came from this site:
http://www.calredwood.org/ref/pdf/deckcon.pdf

As I inspected the boards on the deck, I could see a few that were cupping the way yours is cupping, but more cupping in the opposite direction. The idea of installing the deck with the bark side up was to offset some of the raised edges if and when it warped. If they warp downward, the high point is in the middle of the board.

As mentioned earlier, I was taught to alternate grain directions from on board to the next on flat grain wood. As indicated in the quote, vertical grain wood has less tendency to cup.

Woodworking, like sign making in general, can have many success stories and many failures. It looks like whatever you are doing is working well for you. Keep up the great work!

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Post by joe cieslowski »

Thanks guys,

To start with, I like the term "pith side"......that is what I have been calling the "cup" side. Pith side is much clearer.

I was going to bring up deck building before but it didn't seem relivent.....but it is. Some builders randomly attach the decking without regard to which side is up......which sounds like what your friend has. Did you notice a consistancy to the cupping based on which side of the board was up? All the decks I've built have the pith side up. This exposes that side to the drying elements of the sun and air which helps keep em flat. If there is cupping, it would (as you describe) cause a ridge in the center. This adds to a smoother, safer surface. Also, if the edges curled up the nails woiuld be pulled out.

Woodcraft magazine....hmmmmmm. I have every issue they published for the first 5 or 6 years. Like a lot of things, you can't believe everything you read. Tage Frid wrote an article in Vol. 1 number 2 called "Textbook Mistakes" where he adresses this topic on laminating panels. He agrees with me (or I agree with him). However, IMO, he didn't take the discussion far enough. I stopped getting the mag when they started to tell you how to build a band saw and joiner outa wood. Once you get past the basic properties of wood and good woodworking methods, all that is left is a project magazine. I have enough projects of my own... lol. I stopped my subscription.

Doug, I'm glad to hear about your test......really, it shouldn't take long to get results. I would suggest that you glue up a panel about 4' long and cut it in half. Hang them together exposing opposite faces. Actually, just place two boards on the ground (dirt/grass) with opposite faces up. You should have results by the end of the day.

Good topic Rick!!! :)

Joe,

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Post by Scooter Marriner »

on decking:
the wood will cup, and you want the "hump" to be on top, that way the water will flow off of it, and not "sit in the cup".
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Joe....what I'll do is glue up one with alternating cup or pith and one with all cups up. Mainly my concern is with getting as much as possible vertical/quarter boards when I prepare blanks. Just for those not in the "know" quarter sawn lumber is almost always more expensive as there is less yield per log. It goes without saying that a certain percentage of every log, wether specially cut or not, will be quarter cut and this is what we all look for and want. When it swells with temperature etc it swells up and down (over the planks height)not in and out (surface to surface) depending on the glue-up. Just thought it was worth sticking that in there....2 1/2 cents worth;=/
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Image

I found this on another site. It illustrates different cuts that can come off a large tree.

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Post by vance galliher »

...................and that's why quartersawn cost more, because you only get 4 board per log.
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Actually I saw a diagram somewhere where they showed the process to cutting the log into quarter sawn. It was pretty complicated but every board (almost is my guess) was vertical/quarter. That would cost more fer sher!!
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Post by joe cieslowski »

This is from one of my old texts........

Image

Joe,

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Post by Kelly Thorson »

I just got a 8'x5' cedar cemetery sign brought to me for refurbishing. On examinination, it brought to mind this thread. The blank was constructed of five 8"wide boards that run horizontally. Of the five boards only one was bark side forward. (* edited to remove confusion caused by "cup" I was visualizing it cupping out) It is the only one that has structural problems, which are extensive and all appear on the lower half of the board. It is apparent that as the board dried and perhaps bowed outwards slightly it opened up cracks in the grain which then served as a channel to capture moisture. The splitting in that area is quite bad. I wondered why I didn't see the same happening on the reverse of the other boards and came to the conclusion it was because the sign faces north and thus the reverse would dry up a lot quicker. I just thought it added another twist to the topic.
Any suggestions as how to repair that area?
Last edited by Kelly Thorson on Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Rick Sacks »

Kelly, can you show this to us with photos please????
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Kelly,

I read your description a few times and I hope I got this right........All the boards had the pith side facing south except one and that's the one with the rot problem ........it facing north and not getting the drying action from the sun. If this is correct, it bears out what I've been saying. I would expect rot there because that area (near the center of the annual rings) is quite receptive to moisture and would spit and rot quickly (lotsa air....not much wood). Assuming the sign is painted, I would gouge out all of the decayed wood (make sure you get it all and then a little more). I would also undercut that area to give the filler a ridge to get under and improve it's hold. Epoxy fill it, sand, prime and recoat. It should last a lot longer with that area of the board removed.

Good luck! :)

Joe,
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Post by Kelly Thorson »

The sign was made by a local fellow who has since moved on. I just didn't want to be given credit for it. :)
Image
Image
Image
As you can see the rest of the sign is in great shape. The material inside the split areas is decayed.
Because the surface is still good I was wondering about using a syringe and filling the cracks with that wood rot epoxy.
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Post by Rick Sacks »

Forgive my confusion, but if I'm understanding this correctly the only board oriented as Joe described is the one with the problem?
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Post by joe cieslowski »

I'm confused too Rick......

Kelly, on your sketch.......which side has the lettering?

Joe.
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Post by Kelly Thorson »

The lettering is on the side that says "area of damage". So yes in this situation the curving it is the opposite of what your old text suggests.
I just checked and the bottom two boards warp in conjuction with your text (the middle stick out furthest into the face). The next two act the opposite of what you expect, but the damaged board is the only one that is mounted bark side out. The top board diplomatically stayed perfectly flat. :)
The point I originally was trying to make was that by bowing in that direction it pulled the grain apart in a manner that was condusive to storing moisture and directing it inwards where it could do damage. I guess now that I realize it behaved the opposite of what it should it becomes just a bit of a moot point. :? Or does it?

Edit - I realize the word "cupping" was causing confusion. I viewed it the opposite as you guys did, so I've substituted other words for it. Sorry if this has added confusion to the post, you should see inside my mind sometimes. ;)
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Post by joe cieslowski »

Is this what they call a Texas standoff? :?

Do you know if there were any plantings behind the sign? That might help explain it some......

Joe,
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