Why is the gold on my patent leaf comming off the paper?

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:01 pm

I switched to patent to save a litle gold and when it works, it works great. My last pack and this one has the leaf comming off the paper when I apply it. Any ideas? Can I fix it? I have tried putting a book under about a 25 lb weight in the hopes of "pressing" more firmly onto the paper.....no luck!

All ideas welcome.

Thanks in advance!

Joe

Post by **Danny Baronian** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:15 pm

Hi Joe,

my guess would be there is not enough powder to retain the leaves on the transfer paper, and there's nothing that will change that. First thing I'd do is have the supplier replace your recent purchase.

Assuming this is a new purchase, this should'nt occur unless it's very old stock.

Hopefully someone else will offer other suggestions, in the meantime if you want to apply as patent leaf, cut squares of wax paper slightly larger than the leaf, place the wax paper over loose leaf gold and transfer to the wax paper and apply as patent. If your patent is coming off easily try the wax paper, and see if it will transfer easily.

Danny

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:52 pm

Thanks Danny,

This is the second pac......2 different brands. Same supplier. I guess it's time to switch.
The wax paper technique sounds workable but a real pain when I may need a couple of books at a time.
Thanks for the quick response.

Joe

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:17 pm

Joe....it's just the brand. Some drops off fast and other brands can be almost impossible to get off altogether. What I have done is put the book in the vice. Although not a huge difference it does/or did work for me.

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:56 pm

Thanks Doug,

I tried the vice this morning.......not a noticable difference. I only have four books left.....time for a brand change I guess.
Any suggestions?

Thanks,

joe

Billy Pickett · Post by **Billy Pickett** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:36 am

...I have a whole pack of patent WB that is like that. They suggested that I put something heavy on it, but it didn't help. I have not tried the vise trick yet...

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:00 pm

Joe......I've been using the german leaf Schwabacher (sp?) and it's pretty good. I also had some "Best" which is an Italian leaf that was almost impossible to get off the page AND in desperation last summer ended up with another pack that was terrific. I still seem to stick to the German as it has been consistent.

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:09 pm

Doug,

That is weird. I switched to the Italian best after 2 pacs of the same german as you. The last pack of German and this first of the Italian problems galore.....might just as well use the loose. I hate this!!!!!

Joe

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:21 pm

Joe.........I really only use the patent/transfer leaf for my flat painted stuff. It's just too much easier to go with loose for the dimensional things....BUT....GO FIGGER!! I swear there's a plot!

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:23 pm

Doug,

You may be right.

Joe

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:53 pm

Very interesting as I have been finding that the WB has the least problems and I have some Sepp and Monarch which seem to be ok but with some failures too. I just acquired a pack of 1954 vintage Hastings which is wonderful but not much help to you. As near as I can tell, the issue has to do with the texture of the paper itself as well as the pressure applied in the manufacutre process. It seems to be a hit and miss issue with the quality of paper varying wildly, more than the pressure application itself. Overall, i have always preferred loose leaf anyway for appearance and only use the patent in extreme circumstances, of which there have been quite a few lately. So after that rambling, my advice is to use loose leaf unleass you have no other option.

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:18 am

Kent. Am not sure I understand appearance factor as I've never been able to tell the difference when on the surface. Have tried them side by side as I'd also heard there was an improved appearance with loose. I'd come to the conclusion that there might be more rouge on some pages/manufacturers etc. Like I said....am sure it's a plot.

joe cieslowski · Post by **joe cieslowski** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:25 am

I'm certainly no expert but I think I remember that the loose is just a tad thicker than the patent. That might make a difference in the appearance????
I'm just guessing.

Joe

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:53 am

Depending upon the manufacturer and other similar factors, I have found that the pattern of the paper is pressed into the leaf. Some alloys of the gold will keep that pattern which cannot be rubbed out but can be hidden with burnishing. I discussed this with Matthew Swift many years ago and he felt that the pressure used in attaching the leaf to the paper was a key not only to how well it sticks to the paper but also how deeply the pattern is pressed into the leaf. If you can see the pattern of the paper on the gold before applying, then the pattern goes all the way through the leaf which will give it a more matted appearance. Both loose and patent are technically XX thick which is roughly .0000035 inches. Because the better leaf is hand finished, that thickness is not exact and some gold beaters indicate that the pressure used in attaching the leaf to the patent paper will make it also thinner but that has not been confirmed. The other part of the issue is more evident when using patent on glass. There is often talc on patent more than rouge from the books, which can be trapped in the size on glass which you will see through the glass. The talc is used in the process of attaching the leaf to the application paper. Unlike loose leaf glass gold which is specially selected, patent tends to have a few holidays similar to surface leaf which can cause gold bloom and therefore a duller finish.

Bottom line is that personal preferance will win out and step testing with your favorites will tell each of us which we prefer to use.

Why is the gold on my patent leaf comming off the paper?

Why is the gold on my patent leaf comming off the paper?

Patent