Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

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Thomas Stade
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Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Thomas Stade » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:38 am

First, "Merry Christmas to all" Can anyone shed some light on why my LeFranc slow size is reaaaaalllllyyyy slow drying on a MDO painted panel coated with latex paint. The paint is well dried satin. The lettering to be on the sign is masked but my test areas on the mask dried perfect and on time. With hindsite I supose I should have coated the letters with some 1shot first.

I had this problem once before and thought it to be the size.

Thank You, Tom

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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Mike Jackson » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:52 am

Hi Tom,
We noticed the same thing when we first started trying to apply gold directly over latex. In fact, all enamel paint dries slower on latex than it does on enamel backgrounds. When gilding a raised letter on a latex painted carved or sandblasted sign, we normally put down an initial layer of blockout white, tinted with imitation gold, followed by a coat of imitation gold, and finally the gold size. Doing all those steps adds some time, but the gild was always nice. The blockout white with a little enamel added in dried fairly quick and also allowed for some fine sanding.

On some jobs, we just painted with imitation gold lettering enamel. It dried slowly, and at some point became the perfect tact to gild...and without any gold size at all. Give that a try sometime.

Lastly, we never used much LeFranc 12 heure size at it simply took too long to tack up. In our dry shop, it gave too much of a chance of dust settleing on it, We preferred the quick size, and towards the end, used One Shot quick size which is very fast, but also has a narrow "open" window.

The lesson learned is a "test" piece has to be done with the same products over the same products.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
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Thomas Stade
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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Thomas Stade » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:58 am

Thanks Mike.
I try to avoid that build up on the edges of the mask after its all done but I guess it has to be.
I have always used the slow on my dimensional signs but have used enamals in the past. I have added im-gold to my size to speed it up but I learned somewhere that the slow gives you the best gild and longevity.

Tom

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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Mike Jackson » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:53 am

Try gilding it with just straight imitation gold if using a mask. No size. Let us know how it works out.

Mike Jackson
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Doug Bernhardt
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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:50 pm

Wanted to add that although I've never used leaf the way you both have mentioned over a water based paint make sure you're NOT using a waxed paper cup for your oil size and just oils in general. I've seen that mistake committed once or twice. Now...Michael Jackson.....ya gotta use some size or a concoction of varnishes and linseed oil with/in a one-shot size. The imitation gold will never hold on to the gold......or am I crazy. Okay Okay.....don't answer that.

cam bortz
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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by cam bortz » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:06 am

I've also had the problem of gold peeling from a latex finish months after gilding. One solution is to coat your areas to be gilded with Ti-Cote and a coat of enamel before sizing (which is very much like what Mike was suggesting).

Personally, I deeply dislike acrylic latex paints. In the past two years I've gone back to oil finishes from Fine Paints of Europe, and have had fantastic results - much better fade resistance than OS/Chromatic. www.finepaintsof europe.com

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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Mike Jackson » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:28 pm

Hi Cam,
I never had a problem with oil based paints over latex, nor had any problems with gold leaf coming up when applied over a latex background. I guess you never know.

We did find a few brands of latex paints that were not very sign friendly. Benjamin Moore latex paints always seemed to have an oily finish and we had problems getting either vinyl lettering, tape, or masking to stick to it. Overall, however, latex accepted our oil based sign paints just fine.

Back in the old college days, we had a couple of sayings that went like this:

Beer on whiskey, mighty risky. Whiskey on beer, never fear.

In my sign days, I always thought...

Oil over latex, never fear. Oil over Oil, never fear. Latex over latex, never fear. .... Latex over oil, mighty risky.

Okay, it didn't rhyme, but I remembered it that way. :)

Mike Jackson
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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Mike Jackson » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:50 pm

I should also add that we found it was better to match up the primers to the brand of paint. Duvoe over Duvoe primers. Olympic over Olympic primers and so forth. You wouldn't think it'd matter that much, but I did in our experiences.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
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Jackson Hole, WY

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Kent Smith
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Re: Why isn't this Gold Size drying on LATEX PANEL????

Post by Kent Smith » Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:09 pm

Some types of latex paints have additives (such as vinyl as an example) to make their finish more resistant to foreign matter. Gold size and enamels would be considered foreign matter in this case. Also true with high concentrates of latex (rubber).

The dryers in water based latexes are typically some form of amonia which outgases for many months and can therefore slow the drying of non-compatable topcoats. Some of the mildecides which replaced mercury make the latex have a slicker surface as well and also outgas for up to a year or so. Unless the waterborne is pure acrylic, there are adhesion issues for any topcoat, latex, varnish, lac, or enamel. This is sometimes confusing when there are the high performance acrylic primers to which all paints adhere well.

The slow size has the best durability because of its long oil flexability. Quick size is a formulation of slow size and a varnish to make it set up faster although somewhat unpredictable to tack time. Fast Size is a resin made from a long oil, not a blend and therefore has better adhesion and the gold adheres well to it. It also has a more predictable tack time because it is a resin.

Enamels should not be used for size as they dry with a hard top finish which will let go of the gold over time.

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