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Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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erik winkler
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Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by erik winkler »

Hello fellow vinyl cutters and other professionals,

I really would appreciate some advice and/or tips about the latest cutting software out there.
At the moment this is mainly my working method:
1. Design in Illustrator CS5.
2. Save as an ai file version 3.
3. Open the ai in Gerber Omega Composer check alter and tweak layers, colors etc.
4. Save as a plt file.
5. Cut with a Gerber Fas Track 1300 plotter.

Now the plotter is getting old and we need a new one.
The plotter currently runs with the old system of a serial cable instead of the new usb cable.
I have the ultra modern Summa D140R in mind, but for now it needs to work with our old Omega software.
Should I go for an update or a totally new sign software package.
The Omega software also runs with the old system of an serial dongle at the back of the computer instead of the new usb dongle.
What should I do?
1. Keep the old Omega software and look for a Gerber plugin so the old software and plt files can talk to the new generation Summa plotter.
And plot newly designed files direct from Illustrator with the Illustrator plug in, which is given with the Summa plotter.
2. Buy an update of the Omega software so everything is new and we will probably stay with the gerber software for ever? (I do not have the edge).
3. Buy a complete new software package such as easysign of flexysign on a new computer (with windows 7) which has now serial ports anymore?
Our plotter computer now still works on windows Xp because of the old Omega version.

Ofcourse new is easiest, but ofcourse I want to keep costs as low as possible.
If it is not possible to keep costs low, then I really would like to know that before I make the wrong decissions, like ordering the Summa plotter with the outdate serial cable version.

All thoughts are welcome.
Thank you.
Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Mike Jackson
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mike Jackson »

Erik,
Have you checked to see if Omega can drive the Summa plotter directly? I believe they include lots of drivers for lots of brands of machines.

I have Omega 4 (soon Omega 5) running an Edge and an older HS15 plus plotter on a Windows 7, 64 bit system. The plotter was an old serial version, but it has a Serial to USB converter. It is working fine. The Edge is also going through a Parallel to USB converter as most new machines lack a Parallel Printer port anymore.

Also, I design around 90% of my work right in Omega and use Illustrator only for the digitizing. If already in Omega, I just hit Plot All or Plot Selected and hit either cut or pen plot. I don't have any extra file conversions and extra files to worry about.

It sounds to me like you never upgraded Omega causing you to have to stay with an XP machine. I did it the other way around. I bought the fast machine so I could take advantage of the new version of the software.

But, if you are using Illustrator CS5 and are only using Omega to output to a plotter, you may not need it at all. There are probably several utilities to plot from Illustrator directly into a new Summa plotter. I can't help you on that one.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
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Tyler Tim
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Tyler Tim »

Erik

You might want to look at vinylmaster pro if your considering a new package. From what I've seen and read it's workers flow in designing is like AI and has a host of options as far as cutters it supports. No phone home or dongle to misplace. Very reasonably priced compared to Flexi or Omega.... heck I'd go as far as to say down right cheap comparing feature to feature. I just received a working demo in the mail from them yesterday or you can download from their site if you like.

Tim
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:
Danny Baronian
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Danny Baronian »

Eric,

follow Mike's suggestion regarding Summa running to your plotter directly, I think the software that comes with their plotter cuts directly.

Another suggestion would be to look at Magi Sign: http://www.magisign.com/US/3_prod/Magis ... intro.html

I used to use FlexiSign to plot with, but dropped it completly in favor of MagiSign. It's a plug in for Illustrator that I've used for years without problem, you never leave Illustrator.

Once set up it's trouble free, but if you require help, I have found no one that responds as quickly to get you up and running.

Danny

Edit: MagicSign is Mac based only. If you're on a PC it won't work.
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Mike Jackson
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mike Jackson »

Out of curiosity, I checked on adding another plotter. the Summa plotter you talked about is in the list. It'd be easy to drive it from Omega.

MJ
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Ingrid Mager
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Ingrid Mager »

Originally, I had FLexiSign Pro and Illustrator. Later, I added SIgnCut Pro for cutting. (Admittedly, I have not used Omega, so can not comment on that.) I may not be 100% in addressing your issues, but for what it is worth here are my comments:

For cutting, I gravitate towards SignCut over FLexiSign . .. . I LOVE SignCuts weed function. . . it does incremental cutting. . .and it has a nice clean, interphase, in my opinion. SIgnCut works with all mainstream cutters, PC & MAC, and will work with your Gerber 1300. It is also based in Northern Europe.

http://www.signcutpro.com/SignCut-Produ ... Print.html
---------
I am not sure what you might gain by adding FlexiSign when you already work with Illustrator CS5. Personally, I think that Illustrator is much nicer to draw with than Flexi Sign Pro...although FLexiSign does do some things very well. FLexi seems good for basic sign layout, but once I switched over from FLexi to Illustrator, I never wanted to go back. But if you wanted it just for the cutter driver, it is okay...but I really prefer SignCut.
---------

SignCut Pro is extremely reasonable, and you can either purchase a dongle, or pay for (1) week, (1) month or (1) year usage. This could allow you to try it out for very, very little ($8) and see how well it might integrate with your particular business needs.
---------

But since I began this post it seems MR JAckson has posted that Omega will run the Suma, so maybe that is the way you want to go.

Inga

PS - I happen to use a USB to serial converter on my cutter and have never had any problems either.
erik winkler
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by erik winkler »

Just excidently deleted my post, have write it again.

Thank you guys and doll for giving me your insights. I really appreciat you opninion and effort.

It is true that Illustrator can run the Summa plotter through an downloadable Illustrator plug in from the Summa site; so that is great!
I love designing in Illustrator, but sometimes I miss the ease of and sign software package with correcting curves and lines more quick and precisely.

My update to the latest Omega package would cost € 850,00 about 1105 us dollars, with that (and my current windows vista bussiness computer) all my problems would be solved.
But I do not really want to be forced in using Omega as the sign software package just to open our 27 year fault of plt-format files made in Omega.
We never updated, because allmost all update from Omega were Gerber Edge based and we deliberatly had chosen not to buy the Gerber Edge.
Our good friend the extra large eco solvent Roland printer does the job with more resolution, more speed and less costs.

Therefore my search for other sign software packages, but they have to be able to open our old gerber plt files also.
Easysign is trying to look if they can, but untill now they could only make it happen if i make a little step in between and save the plt files as an eps.
That is not what I want, I would like to open the plt files directly in the new sign software package and plot to the new usb wired Summa printer.
And happily throw our old xp computer in the dustbin.

When writing this I think the answer must be update Omega, but I have the idea that even Omega 5.0 which is just released is much more oldfashioned then Easysign or maybe even Signcut.
Magisign is no option, since we only work with pc's here sorry.
What do you think after these extra lines of insight in my workflow and thoughts?

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Mike Jackson
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mike Jackson »

Erik,
I don't think you will find ANY software package that will open Gerber PLT files. I could be wrong. But you can do a batch conversion of PLT files to AI or EPS.

I have say, however, that I find Omega is FAR SUPERIOR to Illustrator for basic sign layout.
1" Tall Lettering
1" Tall Lettering
1inchtallExample.jpg (81.35 KiB) Viewed 14493 times
Here's an example. In Illustrator, I am forced to enter text in Points. But very few fonts are actually the same size and you never really know what you are going to get in terms of size.
In Omega, I can enter any height in inches and the cap height is always what I entered. That is huge in my opinion, since a major part of what we do is entering text.

Second, as an example, if I needed to outline the text in Illustrator using the Pathfinder, I first have to convert the text to outlines. That loses the ability to edit it as text. In Omega, I can select the text while it is still text and add outlines and even add warps and distortions. The text stays text and all of the outlines and distortions are still applied to new text if I retype or change the spelling or even the font. With the Smart Edit features in Omega, the software remembers the amounts in my outlines or distortions and will display them for me days, months or years later by just double clicking on the object.

I could go on and on with this type of example, but I don't think I'd call the software old fashioned. I'd hate to have to do my design work exclusively in Illustrator! Those CD collections I made were digitized in Illustrator, but I got out of there as soon as possible after that! Everyone will have an opinion on this. I just stated mine!

Good luck either way you go.

Mike Jackson
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Ingrid Mager
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Ingrid Mager »

I really love the freedom of sketching and drawing in Illustrator, but you seem to have a strong opinion for the technical end of OMEGA, Mike, and I can sure see why. Seems it almost has a built in font editor and MORE!!! Someday I will have to check out OMEGA.

••Just for the record, FlexiSIgn IS able to open .plt files. (maybe older versions could not? they did some major upgrading to file formats a few year back. . . ) All levels can now open .plt. $995 or $1695 for something that has layer capabilities and is not totally entry level. OMEGA sounds like a better deal than FLEXI, eh??

••Another possible solution which might be very cost effective is a PLT viewer/converter by CADSOFT. http://www.cadsofttols.com, http://www.abviewer.com/converter-plt-svg.html
For 199 Euros, one can batch convert all their PLT's to .SVG (or DXF) and you can open those files directly in Illustrator or other program. .svg supports 24 and 32 bit color. (Basic level that does not convert in batches is only 49 Euros, but you can still convert and view all the files with it.)


Maybe you could convert all your files over and have that part of the problem RESOLVED . . . .then go on and make your other choices free of this issue. (???)

======
I tried their free trial and the PLTs opened just fine, (MAC and WINDOWS side) but I noticed that the vector is made of little line segments.. . .BUT. . . they ARE joined and are quite SMOOTH and not jagged like I have seen before. Reducing nodes in ILLY to 99% should take care of this. Maybe it will still work for you. . . it is a cheap solution.. . .even free if you do it within the 45 day trial period, LOL.
~Inga
Last edited by Ingrid Mager on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
erik winkler
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by erik winkler »

Again worhtfull tips, thank you very much Mike and Inga.
I will go into to suggested maters. And will make mine decision using your tips.

The only thing I would like to mention is that multiple outlines and other crazy stuff with keeping text editability is possible in illustrator.
Here a nice video clip to look at:
First tutorial from Adobe tv
Second tutorial from Adobe tv produced by Lynda.com

If you work with "ad new stroke" in the apearance box instead of the "ad new fill" button like they do in this tutorial; sky is the limit with text edibility.

After the crazy designing stuff I would make a duplicate layer, lock it and hide it. And do a 'object-expand' all the strokes and fills are outlined.
Then go to pathfinder and do a merge: it is all done and ready to be plotted.

The other possibilty of illustrator is to change the sizing from points to mm and it goes like this:
1. Go to edit
2. Click on preferences
3. Go to units (or an other name in english)
4. Click next to text on.....
5. Points, inch, mm or pix

There you have it.
Ofcourse there is the other problem when typing text in illustrator of the top line and the bottom line being calcutlated with your text height, but this is also just a change in the preference dialog box.

Hope this gives you new freedom in designing in illustrator.

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Ingrid Mager
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Ingrid Mager »

Yes...yes...but I believe :?: Mr. Jackson's is trying to tell us something a little more than this: Fonts these days are no longer standardized in size like they once were. So in Illustrator, whether you are in "INCHES or POINTS, when you change the size of one of those, it is all relative to the size of the glyphs in the font, and not a true representation of an actual POINT size or INCH or MM dimension. They are still all different.

However, in OMEGA, it appears that Mr Jackson is showing us that no matter what the font's glyphs appear like, when you set a font to be 1", it indeed shows up as exactly 1" in your drawing no matter what the font or the relative size of the glyph. FLexiSign is the same way
------------------------

Erik, Thanks for posting those tutorials.. I generally do the various commands from the individual menus and pulldowns, but I really need to spend more time in the APPEARANCES panel. I always seem to forget.
------------------------
Mike, there's also the WARP, DISTORT, TRANSFORM, EXTRUDE 3D, tools, and all the rest of the Photoshop and Illustrator effects under the EFFECTS pulldown menu. These ALL work without first having to convert your text to OUTLINE format.

I guess the EFFECTS pulldown is similar to using the APPEARANCE PAllet, and I don't really know the difference, except you can double up on strokes in the APPEARANCE panel. But I'm sure there's a lot more to it ....and it's all dynamic in its effects. Maybe we should check out some more videos from the ADOBE TV site that Erik pointed out.
~Inga
erik winkler
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by erik winkler »

Inga, nowwwwww I understand what Mike meant, it took me a few times rereading your post and the original post of Mike, but I have got it.
Good point. Somehow I do not design like this. I allways change size by look and feel and not by absolute numbers. It is a true difference between the two and again I will take this with my decision. Some things you take for granted untill you miss them.
Like plot software and health :wink:

Thanks Mike and Inga!
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Ingrid Mager
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Ingrid Mager »

Erik,
I think where this feature of correct font sizing is an issue is more when you are changing from one font to another. It can be a hassle to have to constantly resize fonts while you are designing, and checking out font after font. If the sizing were the same, you could simply flip through the fonts to see how they looked, without having to readjust them all the time.

I still love Illustrator, though. Each software has its unique strengths and weaknesses.

~Inga
erik winkler
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by erik winkler »

My decision is made, I will upgrade to Omega 5.0 and buy the new Summa plotter.
Indeed Omega has a batch file converter to convert plt to ai or eps.
I used it just now but all in all after reading Mike his Omega experience it is evident to me that it still is a good program and an simple update will deal with all the problems concerning serial to usb.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Kevin Bergin
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Kevin Bergin »

Mike Jackson wrote: I don't think you will find ANY software package that will open Gerber PLT files.
SignLab, as much as I can't stand it, imports both .plt and .gca files from GA/Omega.

Signlab's workflow when compared to Illustrator and FlexiSign is absolutely horrendous though. It has a lot of bells and whistles that look great on a sell sheet, but once you sit down and dig into it the core features are poorly developed and the UI is outdated by almost 15 years. It it the only other sign software I know of that can run a Gerber Edge though.
Ingrid Mager
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Ingrid Mager »

Glad you made your decision, Erik!
I don't see how you can possibly go wrong with SUMA+ILLY+OMEGA. . .sounds like cream of the crop to me!

But since I had been comparing some less costly solutions, I just wanted to add (case anybody else needs this information), that SIgnCut also opens and cuts .PLT files. (I didn't have it installed yesterday as I was working on my computer, so could not test it until now) However, it does not open some of my older .plt's made by GA. . .just the HPGL ones. I have not looked into this more, other than open a few random old files. Perhaps it has something to do with the being on the MAC side - I did not try it in WIndows)

So I guess if anybody else ever runs into the .PLT problem and needs a very inexpensive way to work on them, the ABViewer converts them (free for 45 days, or batch convert w/ license) and SIgnCut plots them.(free for 1 week)

But way to go, Erik! Enjoy your new toys!
~Inga
Mike Jackson
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mike Jackson »

Hi All,
These are cases of explaining features that some people might overlook or not totally understand.

Disclaimer: I don't know it all!

People do signs differently and have different work flows. But, if we ared oing a set of boat letters that need to be 3" tall, we simply enter 3" tall and know they will be that height. Same for lettering a line of text on a 4x8. It is nice to know I can go to the bank knowing whatever I enter will be the output.

I did a test in Illustrator before posting. When I entered 72 points on the text, then tried to use the Pathfinder utility, the tool is grayed out. But remember, The Pathfindr tool is different than Stroke. Pathfinder puts an actual vector outline around the letter or shape. You can still add a stroke in Illustrator, than later convert the stroke to offset paths.

As far as PLT files go, you have to watch out for the fact there is a CAD version of PLT. It shows up in the format lists, but they are not Gerber PLT files.

There may be Gerber PLT converters, as a couple have mentioned, but as Gerber moves up in their version levels, each of those companies have to be willing to update their converters. The extra features cause some converters to fail.

The most elegant solution is to let Gerber convert their own files to EPS or AI. It does this well and in large batches of folders. ]

If you opted to go with Omega 5, I personally think you are making a good decision. All of your files wiill stay in your native format and ready to go.

One last tidbit... Illustrator has a lot of great tools and features. The one single biggest knock I have on it is the marquee select tool. Anytime the selection box touches anything it selects it all. In both Omeag and Corel, you must totally encase a shape before it selects it. Just touching an edge of a shape does not select it.

I can't remember if Illustrator does it off hand, but In Omega, if you outline a bunch of shapes, the original elements end up as a "group" and the outlines are a "group". If you add five outlines, eash is a group. Some programs create the outlines, they are not grouped, so selecting the newly created outlines means you have to go back in and select them individually. What a pain.

If you haven't seen the new feature in Omega 5, they added a new Guideline Assistant. Way Cool! I will use it a million times in my design work.

Mike Jackson
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Kevin Bergin
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Kevin Bergin »

I do like that in Omega 1 inch is 1 inch- I think that's something that definitely has value to what we do, much more that inconsistent point sizes in Ai for sure.

I think my biggest annoyance with Illustrator is the lack of a block shadow filter, or even just a vector shadow filter in general. The convert to curves, ungroup, combine shapes procedure to get a grouped outline you mentioned, Mike, is something I'd love to see them fix too. Gradients on live text, and distortion on live text would surely make my wish list as well. I use the layers capability in Illustrator quite a bit to avoid the marquis select issue- but adding and naming all those layers so that you can remember which ones to lock and unlock does take a little bit of time!

I went back and checked my import filters in Signlab, and it actually lists Gerber Omega / Graphix Advantage .plt / .gcs as well as another one for .plt (hpgl, I think it says) I can't speak for how well it imports because I've never had to use it, but it is there and might be an option to look into if someone reading this post on the future is looking to migrate away from Omega for whatever reason.
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mike Jackson »

Hi again,
I was mostly referring to the popular DTP programs when I said I didn't think any of them could open or import Gerber PLT files, as that is the direction Erik was headed at the time. If the other dedicated sign making programs can import or open them, the end result is essentially going from one frying pan to another.

A distinction worth noting is the fact the dedicated signmaking programs were designed from the ground up to help design signs, while the DTP programs were originally designed for print purposes and "can" be used to design signs.

As an example, I can select the text tool, pick Cooper Black and 6", enter Letterheads and click F11 to go to the plotter software, then F8 and the plotter starts cutting.

There are a lot of features and utilities in Omega that are used specifically for people using a Gerber Edge, and some of what people see on the surface shrouds the underlying power of the design and layout tools. I've also used Flexi, Signlab, and CasMate (though all long ago), and I think all of them share the basic concept of sign design over Desktop Publishing.

But, I certainly acknowledge the fact the dedicated sign making programs cost more than the DTP programs. For people trying to get by for less, the DTP and bridge plotting software is a viable option.

Without a doubt, I have seen plenty of absolutely great artwork made on both Corel Draw and Illustrator. I can understand why that group could say they love their programs. For sign layout, however, I still think Omega is superior.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
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Mark Summers
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Re: Advice and tips needed for new Cutting and Design software.

Post by Mark Summers »

The one big thing that seperates DTP and sign programs is the printing function
to our large format printers. Guess I'm of a differnt opinion about my Signlab.
Not happy 100% of the time but they have done a pretty good job for me.
I have Summa printer (DC3) and Summa cutters and have real good success.
Far exceeding Summa's dongle necessary program. As with all the poplular
sign programs they handle vector and bitmaps. What is interesting is how
at least with Signlab they are handling many of the filters that you would
use in Photoshop. In some cases I find it easier to go to Signlab than
Photoshop. If I were not with Signlab I would probably to to Corel.
My 2 cents.

Mark
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