276ccm: My work and progress..

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Marius Mellebye
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276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:07 pm

Starting my own thread where I can post my updates and stuff I´m working at, so I can more easily see my own progress (hopefully) and if getting replies with tips and tricks I can more easily go back and check.. hope that´s ok..

As I said in my "introduction" post, I´m from Norway, 41 in a few days and work as an upholster, beside working with leather, pinstriping and so.. mostly on motorcycles. I have been gilding a little on motorcycles, but only surface gilding and the sign making and reverse glass gilding have always fascinated me, so hopefully I´ll learn a lot from you guys :-) Actually already have..

So..My very first attempt at reverse water gilding.. Applied a mixture of gelatin and water on the back side of the glass and then carefully attached the genuine silver. (I didn´t have loose gold sheets, so I tried with what I had)

I didn't have distilled water, which I know I should have used, I obviously didn't clean the surface well enough and used genuine silver leaf instead of gold (I know white gold is recommended over genuine silver).. but still, it think it worked pretty well to be the very first time, even without doing it as properly as I should have. At least I got a feeling of how the process is.

Now I´ll try to paint a letter over the leaf, and then wash of the leftover silver.. I´m very exited about this..

A question for the gilders out there.. Loose genuine gold sheets costs the white out of the eye here in Norway (about $150 for 25 sheets of 22 karat) The exact same 22 karat costs under $45 at eBay.. the questions is: Is it just as good to use 22 karat as 24 karat? Is it just the colour of the gold that is different? If so, the 22 karat is a bit cheaper to practise with than 24 karat :-)

Image

I know, very far from perfect, but the process was very exiting and seeing the mirror like effect taking place after it had dried up was pretty cool. The experienced ones probably think it looks pretty crappy, but got to start somewhere.. :-)
Marius Mellebye / 276ccm Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/276ccm Blog: http://276ccm.blogspot.no

Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:37 pm

Painted the backside with one shot silver..
Image

Wiped off the leftover silver a bit early as I was a little impatient.. then outlined it.. (the stroke shadows, is just for taking away the focus on the faults) :-)

There are two good things about this: 1, it´s a lot of fun and 2, it´s a lot of room for improvements :-)
Image
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Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:51 pm

Hey Marius,

Great start!

No, it doesn't look bad at all. Seeing the crinkle lines is common and those will be diminshed (though in my case never eliminated) with practice.
You didn't mention if you wiped it down, after it was dry, with cotton to remove the loose silver before backing it up. That's a critical step (wipe in the direction of the seams and cracks) and you'll usually find that a second gild is needed to fill in the holidays. Then a final wash with warm size helps to brighten the finished gild before backing it up.

22kt works just as well as 24kt. I very rarely use 24kt for either surface gilding or glass gilding - rather 23kt is the staple. The lower the karat, the higher the silver content and thus the heavier it is - requiring a stronger ratio of gelatin in your size. The more gelatin in the size, the cloudier the finish. So these are just some factors to consider.

If you successfully applied the silver, you'll find 22 or 23 karat to be easier to work with.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

http://DanSeeseStudios.com
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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:36 am

Thanks a lot Dan! I used a piece of cotton to wipe it off, but I didn´t think off wipe in the direction of the seams and cracks.. more like cirlces, very carefully, but I´ll try that next time. Holding it up to the light, it defiantly needed a second gild. A final wash with warm size I will also try. Thanks a lot for the feedback and the info on the gold karat. I´ll order some 22 karat to practise with :-)

Marius
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Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:06 pm

Marius,
Holding it up to the light is a sure road to frustration. The leaf is so thin that you will ALWAYS see thin spots, cracks & holes. That microscopic sheet of gold is all that is needed and it is so reflective that many imperfections will basically disappear when it is backed-up.

However, if you put a something dark on the other side of the glass like construction paper or black plastic, you can easily see those open areas which will show through. If it's not too major you can simply patch those areas or you can just do a second gild over everything and thereby fill those gaps.

By the way - nice "A".
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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erik winkler
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by erik winkler » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:25 am

Just buy the book http://www.amazon.com/Gold-Leaf-Techniq ... 0944094252
Experiment and when you have any questions afterwards ask on the forum.
There are too many factors involved, so it is better to buy the book first.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:05 am

Looks to me like Marius has been doing some experimenting already!

The book is a great resource so take Erik's advice & purchase it if you can. Even with the book, you'll have questions. Kent Smith checks in often & (as the one who authored the latest versions of the book) can offer advice. Also, you mentioned on another post that you've been poking around the site to find information so keep that up. There are more ways than one to skin a cat and you'll varying approaches here.

Don't hesitate to ask questions. That's what this forum is all about - sharing. Just realize that you won't always get a timely response.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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BruceJackson
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by BruceJackson » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:59 pm

Wow...$150 for a book of gold is really hitting hard. $45 is about right. You can buy from several sources which you will find mentioned on this site and in other posts.

I usually buy 80-100 books at a time from Chinese makers and then re-sell it by the book for around $45 online and to my friends and I'm still making some decent pocket money profit, so anyone selling at over $60, (or $150!) per book is simply price gouging.

Nice job. It doesn't look crappy at all. The finish on the silver looks good. Don't worry about the odd wrinkle. In fact, silver doesn't give a finish quite as fine as gold anyway. And a bit of patina and wrinkle is part of the charm...I agree with all of Dan Seese's comments, especially about being overly critical of the very fine pinholes and cracks. Only the large holes and obvious flaws are visible. The fine stuff disappears from the front. Try to get a clean smooth edge when paint the letter during backing up. A smooth unbroken line looks confident and masterful. A broken, jagged edge or wobbly edge looks amatuerish.

Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:29 am

Thanks a lot for the feedback! :-)

Yea, everything in Norway is super expensive, so with the US currency differences, eBay and US suppliers are my good friends.. but the problem is, I get a lot of requests for my motorcycle leather seats from US and many other places in the world, but for most they are too expensive, even tho they are pretty "cheap" here in Norway. Anyway..

The book is on my next order.. also just bought the GIlders fast size from http://letterheadsignsupply.com, which I´m exited to test out, as the new 1-shot fast size was a big disappointment. Have a few motorcycle gas tank gilding jobs comming up..

Trying to be as steady as I can, but with this first test, I was a little impatient.. was a bit to exited to see how this worked out :-) Bought sterilised water and ordered some more 22k gold leafs.. waiting for that to arrive I do a little testing with the fake leaves I already have. As they are thicker and probably heavier, I added a little more galantine in the mix, but that also seems to be a lot harder to remove the leftovers after backing up the motive.. Having fun experimenting, while waiting for the post man :-)

Image

Thanks again, really appreciate the feedback!

Marius
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Kent Smith
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Kent Smith » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:22 pm

Good gild for the first attempt. I suspect that your gelatin size was a little heavy but it is hard to tell from a photo. Glass cleaning is essential especially being careful to remove any residue from the cleaning process. If you have not done so, LHSS backing black is good for the outlines and backup of the gild as well. To add to Bruce's comment, a smooth line will also clean up the gild better without a ragged edge as it is brush technique that helps to make clean up easy.

Keep practicing and post questions as they arise.

Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:13 am

Thanks a lot Ken! :) You are right, my size was way too thick, I understand that now when I have experienced a bit more too.. at first I thought it was strange that so little gelatine could make it stick, but I see now. It looks like I have to order LHSS backing black as well, but I have to look trough and see what more I could get, as the shipping is a lot..

Norway is a great country to live in, but one of the back draws are the access to special items. I have a lot of 1-shot paint, but as I have tried, I think it slips a little easy when removing the leftover gold and silver and makes the edges a little rough.. I guess that is some technique as well, but what would you say is the big difference between LHSS backing black vs 1-shot Black?

Edit: One more little thing, those gelatine capsules, are those the empty ones at the pharmacy which they use to pack other medicine?

Marius :-)
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erik winkler
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by erik winkler » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:48 am

Eventhough you were not smart enough to listen to my earlier tip (in an other post) about the one hour gold size product.
I will help you out once more, because I get frustrated to read that you do the same unneccesary exspensive mistakes in shopping overseas like I did.

One shot is just a regular black paint that:
1. Covers well
2. Has a high gloss finish
3. Relative good adhesion
It is not that special anymore, try your Norway quality paints.

Back up black is a sort of (one part) quick drying screen ink.
Try your Norway screen ink supplier.

If you are looking for distributers in Europe here is a link with specialized pinstriping shops.
Sweden is not that far...
Distributers

I just saved you about 500 euro's and you are now ably to deliver an even higher quality.

Happy experimenting.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:24 am

Erik, as you have probably noticed I´m pretty new here and a novice, so I try to catch as many tips I can by searching around the forum. But honestly I can´t remember them all, but the one from the fast gold size thread, I noticed it was several that mentioned the Ron Parcell´s Gilders size beside your Kolner size tip.. I looked at the "Sepp leaf New York" store tho, but it was hard to find any info. Maybe I´m not smart enough..

I guess it´s often by technique as well (do not know when it comes to gold size for surface gilding tho) but I have a lot of One Shot I use for pinstriping motorcycles now and then, others would never use that, but House of Kolor, Alsa or others.. I´ve Tried both HOK and Alsa, but it doesn't work as well for me, probably mostly be cause I have gotten used to how One Shot works and reacts and not be cause the others are no good, so some times I just have to chose and hopefully in time, I will be able to test others too and find what I feel comfortable with.

Actually, Kristi Parcell contacted me on Facebook as someone from this forum (thank you) had mentioned to them that I was interested in testing, but their site said: only shipped by ground USPS.. so she helped me out, and the service was super!

My experience is that buying from overseas due to the US$ and Nowegian Krone differences, is cheaper than from most places I have found in Europe, as shipping flammable usually are very expensive anyhow, unless you are able to pick it up. I used to buy both from UK and Sweden, but the shipping rates became very high, plus the 25% Norwegian taxes etc..

Thanks for clearing out the difference of One Shot and back up black. It makes it easier to ask around the art stores and explain what I´m looking for. I tried to take some phone calls yesterday and explain that I was looking for some strong paint, that would stick to glass and cover the gold better than the one shot, but no one knew what One Shot is, and they all said that ordinary enamel was the only they could think of.. therefor I might bug someone by asking and make sure what I´m actually looking for.. I´ll check out and see if I find some screen ink supplier, thanks for good tips! :-)

I noticed some guy from Instagram (yea I guess I´m the young generation, even tho I´m 41 :-) ) mentioned that adding a little hardener to the One Shot did the trick for him.. anyone tried that?

While looking around the forum, I get inspired to practise my lettering.. at least ideas for it:
Image
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erik winkler
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by erik winkler » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:11 am

Here is the Original supplier of the Kolner instacoll base.
The site is in Dutch, but with google translation you are there; they are allways willing to answer any phonecalls or emails regarding the easy process. Kolner gold size.

I have had the exact same problems you have encountered, lots of waste of time and money, lots of unneeded frustration.
At the end it was all unnecessary if I only knew...

Remember this, if you use One shot hardener it is said that it will tarnish silver and the other metalls that are in your 22 carat goldleaf.
I do not like taking the risk of using hardener with unpure (22 carat or less) goldleaf.

I tried searching for stores in Norge and the rest of Scandinavia... it seems you live on an Island when working with this stuff.
So my advise is to find european alternatives for the products you search. I have discovered that a lot of brushes, paints, varnishes, goldleaf, mica and name the rest are originally from different countries in Europe, like Nederland, England, France, Germany and Italy.

Or... if you have losts of patience: Read all the posts on this forum, make notes, a lot of them, in your computer and at the end of this process you will have a list of products you want to use. THEN it would be cheaper to buy everything in one big order at Ron Percell's.
Last edited by erik winkler on Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:05 am

Hehe yea, it some times feels like we live in a little isolated island which god forgot.. :-) The more I learn, the more I see I need/would like to try out, so in the beginning I´m a little impatient, but as I do with my leather craft stuff, I usually wait and have bigger orders when I first do order.

Thanks for the feedback, tips and link, appreciate it! :-)

Marius
Marius Mellebye / 276ccm Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/276ccm Blog: http://276ccm.blogspot.no

Kent Smith
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Kent Smith » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:07 pm

Just another thought which you might find on other posts, the screen print ink was Colonial Ink's Dekor Gloss which we all used and the LHSS backing is a replacement of that. You might find a local supply of an ink that would be used as a substitute for it. Dekor was discontinued a number of years ago but someone might have a cross reference still.

One shot does not act as a resist for cleanup of a gild even with the hardener added.

Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:22 pm

Marius,
If you use the One Shot hardener, be sure you add no more than 5%. It will speed up the drying time but I think if you add too much it makes it brittle.
I don't think I've ever tried it to use One Shot paint as a back-up paint with or without hardener but John Studden may have done so. I know he likes to use the hardener in back-up paint to eliminate the need for varnish outlines, but I haven't tried this myself.

Oh, and Erik . . . I seem to recall when you first started posting on this forum that you were enthusiastically doing all kinds of experimentation (which I found to be humorously enjoyable) and making your share of mistakes. Try to recall the patience others showed to you and give Marius a break - he's diving into this intriguing medium with vigor! :wink:
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

http://DanSeeseStudios.com
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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:26 pm

Thanks a lot! I´ll ask around for that ink and see if I can find anything local :-) Always easier, but in the mean time, I think I´m going to place another order from http://letterheadsignsupply.com.. how is the consistency of the back up black.. I guess it will get thicker the more the can is open, and needs to be thinned out? And if so, what is recommended for thinner?

I´ll do a little testing with the hardener, but I might just as well do the right thing from the start, instead of trying to invent the wheel one more time, with all your experience :-)

While first ordering, I´m looking trough their store and was curious about the Asphaltum Varnish.
On their site it says: " asphultum varnish is used in reverse glass work, for sandblasting, glue chipping as a resist and shading effects. The darkening liquid for creating shade effects on gold leaf."

"For sandblasting" Does that means when this is painted on, it´ll protect the glass which is not going to be sandblasted?

"Glue chipping" The word "chipping" didn´t show up in the google translate, so I guess it´s a more technical term. Anyone wants to try to explain the meaning of chipping?

"The darkening liquid for creating shade effects on gold leaf." This part was the one which made me most curious. Anyone know how this work or can be used for shading effect? Is it a thin transparent liquid that can be airbrushed, where I want the shading, before applying the gold? Got a couple of airbrushes here too, as I used to play around with that.. Or is this to be considered the more advanced part, and smart to save for later when the experience is better? :-)

When punting varnish over the edges, I guess that is mostly on doors etc, where the lettering/motive will be extra worn? Can I there use the same clear as I use to paint over surface gilded lettering with a brush? Or is there something special recommended here too?

Anything beside the Back up Black, and maybe Asphaltum Varnish that you guys know I will or should need pretty quick, so I can place it in the same order :-) (Still waiting for the Gold Leaf technique book from Amazon)

Thanks for your patience, Marius :-)
Marius Mellebye / 276ccm Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/276ccm Blog: http://276ccm.blogspot.no

erik winkler
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by erik winkler » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:08 pm

Dan Seese wrote:Oh, and Erik . . . I seem to recall when you first started posting on this forum that you were enthusiastically doing all kinds of experimentation (which I found to be humorously enjoyable) and making your share of mistakes. Try to recall the patience others showed to you and give Marius a break - he's diving into this intriguing medium with vigor! :wink:
I encourage him to dive into this intriguing medium ,but I do not want him to waist money with all the over seas shipping costs like I did.
And I definatly want him to know what to buy, since I had the same problem of buying the American names, because I wanted to follow the mentioned recipies. Now I know better and have found better, cheaper and local alternatives.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:02 pm

Exciting package in the mail today from Letterhead Sign Supply, so now there is no excuse not to try, failing and learning :-)

Image

Also bought my first letterhead font, to try to design stuff for ideas and inspiration.. the "Unlovable" font.

Image

Marius :-)
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Anthony Bennett
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Anthony Bennett » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:59 am

Kent Smith wrote:Just another thought which you might find on other posts, the screen print ink was Colonial Ink's Dekor Gloss which we all used and the LHSS backing is a replacement of that. You might find a local supply of an ink that would be used as a substitute for it. Dekor was discontinued a number of years ago but someone might have a cross reference still.

One shot does not act as a resist for cleanup of a gild even with the hardener added.
Hi Kent,
Is Sericol's Fast Dry Enamel still considered the substitute for Dekor Gloss as recorded here http://www.theletterheads.com/supplies/index.htm please?

Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:46 am

Wasting some quality time at my local coffee shop and the owner asked me if I wanted to draw a chalkboard sign for him.. I havent been playing with chalk since I was a kid at school, but gave it a try.. the owner was happy about it and then I guess I should be too..

Maybe I should make my own too, with: "will work for coffee" :-)

The first..
Image

And while at it, he asked me to do another one..
Image

The owner :-)
Image

With a little better time and some smaller chalk I guess I could have planned it a little better and done it a bit more detailed..
Marius Mellebye / 276ccm Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/276ccm Blog: http://276ccm.blogspot.no

Julio Cesar Germano
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Julio Cesar Germano » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:48 am

Great going with the chalkboard!
I like the flourishing all around, I don't feel as confident doing them yet.

Good luck and keep up the good work!
I've started calligraphy as a hobby a couple of years ago and, from there, stumbled upon
the wonderful world of lost arts - pinstriping, chalkboard art, hand-lettering and sign making.

From Brazil.

Julio Cesar

Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:58 am

Thanks Julio! :-)

A few days ago I came across some "Sanborn Map Co." illustrations/typography.. I have never seen them before and was blown away by the look.. so I was really inspired and wanted to try make my own Sanborn inspired sign..

About to sketch it, and then I will try to draw it all again in Illustrator.. I must say some of the letterhead tutorials for Photoshop and Illustrator are really useful, and I have learned a lot from them the last few days, so thanks a lot for making them! :-)

When I have managed to make it into Illustrator, I will try to make a gold leafed sign from it..

Would love some feedback on the design.. I´m sure there are several "flaws" so any constructive feedback is welcome! I havent drawn all of the background details or the lettering shadows yet.. I did this sketch to have something to work with in Illustrator..

Image

Have a great Sunday!

Marius
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Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:00 pm

Marius,
Not much to critique. You've really nailed the style & it holds together well.
One thing my critical eye catches right away though is the space between the 2 and the 7 in 276 CCM.
Would it make sense either to give the 7 a slant on the lower left (possibly give it a left "bulge" if you want to keep all the lettering upright) or pull the lower part of the 2 over to the right a bit to tuck it in under the 7? Possibly do a "curl" like on the "L", but going the other direction.
Just a thought.
Nice work.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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Marius Mellebye
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:31 pm

Thanks a lot for the feedback Dan!

You are absolutely right, the space between 2 and 7 looks a little too open.. I´ll try some different variations and see whats look better. I guess I´m some times blinded by looking too much and getting "used" to what I´m working on :-) This feedback is super, thanks!

Marius
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Dan Seese
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Dan Seese » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:13 pm

Really quick photoshop alteration you might build on. The 7 follows the profile of the 2 and mirrors the 6.
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:20 pm

Yea, it looks a lot better right away and the "weight" of the 276 is a lot more even, and still keeping the straight lines of the numbers . Really appreciate your tips, thank you! :-)

Marius
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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Marius Mellebye » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:40 am

Was following your advice Dan and sketched the 276 again, then drawing it in illustrator (I see there are still some things to fix) and fooled around in Photoshop to try to make it a little more "Sanborn" :-)

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Re: 276ccm: My work and progress..

Post by Anthony Bennett » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:22 am

I know I am going to get shot at for saying this but the large 7 looks wrong since it has been changed from a "continental" 7.
There are three 7's in the artwork, two written continental style and the largest without.

I think they should all look the same, just my 2 cents worth.

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