Lefranc original gold size.

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DAVE SMITH
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Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:22 am

I am totally out of the original lead based Lefrac goldsize, i was wondering if anyone here could help me out with a few tins of the 3 hour and 12 hour. The new product is just not reliable enough. any help also on new products that you guys would recommend mainly for glass work.?
. my email is chapman_and_smith@btinternet.com

many thanks.
Dave

Terry Colley
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Terry Colley » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:52 am

Good luck with that one Dave , let me know if if you find any, They changed the 12 hour about 5 years ago , the new one did not work so they changed it again . I have used the new version on surface gilding and it takes 2 days to get the right tack .The 3 hour they said they would not change as it contained cobalt and not lead. So no need to stock up, then they changed that, the new one I am still not happy with. I can see us all going back the old days when we had to make our own mixes grinding pigments ect. while we are on the subject of paints, do you know of a decent black for the glass work?
Thanks Terry
Terry Colley
Stockport, England
Signwriter/maker

John Studden
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by John Studden » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:18 pm

While working with Noel last year on the Disney job in Anaheim we visited the local branch of McLogans for some supplies, this place has been there for years........While looking around we found on a shelf 12 cans of 3 h.r & 12 cans of 12 hr. original green label 500 ml cans. The 3 hr was lumpy but may be able to be brought back to life.....The 12 hr. was almost perfect just needed shaking and a little straining, smells wonderful, this is the real thing, a bit like winning the lottery for a letterhead!..............
John Studden
Valencia Signs, California

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:30 pm

As Tony Segale would say , lucky skunk!

Doug Bernhardt
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:42 pm

Guys....don't be afraid of the Luna 12hr. from Germany. Have used it for years and get same results as the old LeFranc. Quick size I only use on glass and the Purcell's have something quite wonderful they sell.

Lee Littlewood
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Lee Littlewood » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:31 am

I don't know anything about the L&B 3 hour, have always used Rolco.
But I did a test in May 2012 with my "new" L&B 12 hour [sort of a tan label, "Mixtion (gold size) - 12 hours (lead free)" bought in 2010] against my "old" L&B 12 hour (yellow label) from '05 or so. They looked and acted very similar - gold laid at 12 hours was drowned, after 24 it was so-so, after 2 days it had good shine and after 5 days it was fractionally brighter. That's the way I have always found L&B slow to act - I never understood the "12 Hours" on the label. The interesting difference to me was that the new size was notably smoother - the tests were side by side on a piece of aluminum, and when held at the right angle you could read newsprint in the new size but just see black wiggles in the old size. Now that might be because the old can was old and down to the bottom (that's why I was forced to open the new can), but unless the longevity turns out different I actually prefer the lead free version.
where am i? Now, when i need me...

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:55 am

Thanks both of you. sounds promising!...
Dave

Rich Hawthorne
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Rich Hawthorne » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:31 am

Lee Littlewood wrote:I don't know anything about the L&B 3 hour, have always used Rolco.
But I did a test in May 2012 with my "new" L&B 12 hour [sort of a tan label, "Mixtion (gold size) - 12 hours (lead free)" bought in 2010] against my "old" L&B 12 hour (yellow label) from '05 or so. They looked and acted very similar - gold laid at 12 hours was drowned, after 24 it was so-so, after 2 days it had good shine and after 5 days it was fractionally brighter. That's the way I have always found L&B slow to act - I never understood the "12 Hours" on the label. The interesting difference to me was that the new size was notably smoother - the tests were side by side on a piece of aluminum, and when held at the right angle you could read newsprint in the new size but just see black wiggles in the old size. Now that might be because the old can was old and down to the bottom (that's why I was forced to open the new can), but unless the longevity turns out different I actually prefer the lead free version.
Lee, do you notice any difference in the setup time when you use L&B in a dehumdified environment? I ran a test recently where I ran my dehumdifier and dropped the room humidity from 60% down to 35% after laying the size and it sure seemed to me that it had a measurable effect on the the set time for the 12 hour, reducing it by several hours. I too have had your experience with needing to wait at least full 24 hours for L&B to setup.

Now I am interested in the Luna 12 hour mentioned here.

Kent Smith
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Kent Smith » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:32 pm

I rarely gild on slow size in less than two days. I have always thought that the 12 hours was the earliest possible time frame in the dryest and warm conditions. I have had good results with the lead free, works more like Hastings did but certainly a few days for a great gild. Cobalt dryer tends to bond with the resin in quick size and no amount of stirring or solvent additive will reconstitute that bond. It is possible to strain and then add cobalt dryer but it is difficult to know what the contents were that were strained away so the ratio could be off.

I have heard that Rolco was effected by the flooding from hurricane Sandy and has been closed, anyone have any news on that?

pat mackle
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by pat mackle » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:51 pm

I hate this cr+p! You would think that with all the lead they have taken away (gasoline, paint, solder, car radiators, ammunition,toys, etc.) that they could afford to leave traditional gold size products alone. If it severely affects the product, maybe it's best left alone. After, all a good gild job lasts for many years. Has to be less environmental impact than driving out many more times to touch up or redo the whole job! Just how much gold size makes it's way into the environment anyway? How much lead can there be in gold size. How about size makers buying up some environment lead credits like they allow with air polluters?
This is making me think of other materials that might work even better! For one thing they would be a heck of a lot clearer. All that is needed is that they adhere tight to glass or wood, dry to a hard gloss, and have a controllable workability range that can be determined by adding a faster or slower reducer.
The alternative would be to begin to explore natural rosin based traditional formulas.
Hey, maybe the rise in people losing it in the world and headlining in the evening news is a direct link to the loss of lead in our diet. The human brain CRAVES lead! Like solder on a circuit board holding your thoughts together.
Might be time to just move on :roll:

Doug Bernhardt
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:49 pm

Ha Ha Pat....Beethoven (after all Ludwig is da'Man) died, went deaf, and probably impotent from sweetening his cheap wines with lead cubes.....but yes.... We have gone nuts trying to get rid of lead in absolutely everything. I've almost never had an issue (as some describe) with setting up too quickly etc etc. Around here, and I do believe regional differences apply, I size with 12 hr (and enuf one shot to see it) about 3 in the afternoon and gild in the morning. Never an issue except only once while giving a demonstration (of course) in an extremely dry place. It went off before morning. Now I admit I'm looking for that even satin gold rather than any Hi burnish effect.

pat mackle
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by pat mackle » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:05 pm

Hi Doug,
Akzo Nobel makes a great matte additive that would dull and may also act as a dryer. Something to consider in formulating a matte finish gold size. :idea:

Tony Segale
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Tony Segale » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:32 am

David,

Listen outta yer good ear now...
Percy, aka Master Doug Bernhardt recommended a product by the brand of Luna.
Now this ain't no ordinary snake oil he's pushin here, this is the real tha-hang!

I purchased a quart of 12hr Luna and have gilded many exterior letters made from prismatic plastic to HDU and have had nothin but success.
It is good to have an edge.

Lucky Skunk!
and he took that golden hair and made a sweater for baby bear.
http://www.tonysegale.com
http://www.tonysegale.wordpress.com

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:56 am

Thanks Tony! and thanks everyone for the advice here. Always a good place to drop in for info.

Luna it is then. Where is the best place to buy this stuff?

cheers
Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:28 am

I have tried to look for Luna also, but could not find it on the internet.
Does anybody have a link?

Maybe some stupid questions, but what do I know?
1. Does anyobdy have an old recipy for making oil size the traditional way with lead?
2. What if I put some leadwhite (I found some and keep it on my shelf) in the current le franc oil size, will it go good or is it a disaster waiting to happen?
3. The same question for One shot paint: What would happen with the paint if I put some (how much?) leadwhite in it myself?

Thanks
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:40 am

Never know Erik, maybe just worth a go. i see some experiments coming!

keep us informed.

Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:00 am

The experiments will come, but any pointers in the good direction would help a lot.
The most positive outcome will show in at least one year if the size is still holding the gold correctly.

Do you know where to buy the Luna size Dave?
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Jerry Berg
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Jerry Berg » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:51 am

Here is what my search turned up. http://www.artessentialsofnewyork.com/g ... 0-17-.html
It's listed near the bottom of the page.

Danny Baronian
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Danny Baronian » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:53 am

Doug turned me onto Luna when LeFranc changed their formula, and works well.

As Jerry listed, it's available from Art Essentials in New York.

As for availability, it shouldn't be hard to find a supplier in Europe, as Luna is made in Germany.

Danny
Danny Baronian
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erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:38 am

Danny Baronian wrote:As for availability, it shouldn't be hard to find a supplier in Europe, as Luna is made in Germany.

Danny
That is the strange thing, I just can not find any european dealer....
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:41 pm

I did the same Erik. no one. thanks for the link Jerry/Danny.
Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:16 pm

Dave,
I thought I would check with my own Dutch supplier and I found the stuff, Gilded planet probably renamed it to Luna.
German oilmixtion

Thanks for the help everybody.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Kent Smith
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Kent Smith » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:15 pm

Erik and others interested, adding white lead by itself would be a disaster. First you must make a lead dryer which is made with pure mineral spirits or naphtha (sometimes turpentine). The simple formulae is to add 3% by weight of white lead to the solvent and stir vigorously until all the lead disappears, then strain using large mesh like muslin, wire mesh kitchen strainer or cheesecloth. The straining is just to get any floating lumps out. This dryer then can be added to any oil based paint or size like adding Japan dryer, not more than 10% by volume. You will have to estimate how much dryer is already in the product as too much dryer will actually keep it from drying. If you add dryer to slow size, then you will need to do some step tests to determine how long the size will come up to tack and under different conditions. Note that lead dryer is toxic and care should be taken to not inhale the ambient lead as the mixture is prepared and refrain from getting any in open wounds on your skin as well.

We used to make our own fat oil for size in the following way. Use a flat pan like a cake pan and fill with boiled linseed oil to a depth of 2", cover with a sheet of glass and set in the sunshine. The reason for the cover is that you want it to thicken but not evaporate. We had a flat roof on the shop when I was a kid and we kept two or three pans going on the roof all the time. The oil will slowly thicken and it is a good idea to stir it every few days. Once it has thickened to about 1" depth, it is ready. Pour off the remaining oil with out the skins through a kitchen strainer or screen cloth. Add 5% by volume dryer for 48 hour size and about 10% for a 12 hour size. The mixture can be reduced with a good quality reducer such as high temp to get it to a good brushing consistency. I find the process to be arduous and the quality of commercial size acceptable because of it.

Another more dangerous way of making fat oil is to put a few inches of boiled linseed oil in a pan on low heat on a stove. When the oil ignites into flame, smother with a lid and let cool. This is certainly more exciting but the results vary in quality and thickening, you are subject to starting a fire, it stinks up the place and ruins (your mother's as I found out early on) good cookware. After one attempt, Dad and I were not allowed in the kitchen for about a year at which time we took to forming our own plexiglass letters in the oven and were banned again.

erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:25 am

Haha this is a good story!
Thanks Kent for the recipies.
Cooking the oil makes me think of the oil named "stand-oil" in Dutch.
If I buy this oil and put my own dryer in it, I would have made the oil mixtion my self?

I wanted to post a link from this company before, but forgot to do it.
A few weeks ago they asked me to gild a memorial plaque:
memorial plaque.jpg
memorial plaque.jpg (63.77 KiB) Viewed 8520 times
The company is the one and only varnish and rosin coockery still left in Nederland.
If AKZO nobel or Sikkens or any other paintmanufacturor need speciality products they order the baseproducts here.
Here is the link:
Vliegenthart
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Kent Smith » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:31 pm

I never thought about using stand oil in this fashion but it is a thickened linseed oil. I would want to do some testing but theoretically it should work. I don't know if the heating process with oxygen eliminated would effect the curing or adhesion. It is the base material when hydrogenated, becomes oil painting cream i.e. Smith's cream and others and can be used in original form for much the same purpose.

erik winkler
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by erik winkler » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:29 am

Besides the German mixtion I just ordered, my goldleaf supplier told me he had an secret stash of original le Franc size.
I have one liter now.
So no experiments for me, sorry
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by DAVE SMITH » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:47 am

You got lucky with that Erik. Does he have any more he could part with?
Thanks
Dave

pat mackle
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by pat mackle » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:55 pm

In researching for a moment I got the story that Rolco is out of business, and that some of it's former employees started up to make it again under the name "DUX". I was told that it is based on the original formula, but now is said to be made even better.
I have a question to Doug or anybody that is using "LUNA". Is LUNA an oil size, or is it a water based milky white size like "Wunda Size"? I cannot find any mention LUNA on the web which might be because it is a German made size that has been repackaged.
Any ideas or info anyone?

Danny Baronian
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by Danny Baronian » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:00 pm

Pat, Luna is oil base, not water based.

The only difference I see between LeFranc and Luna is it goes off a little faster.

Le Franc 50/50 3 and 12 hour mix is the right tac in about 8-9 hours (original formula).

Luna, same mixture is ready is 5-6, and is open for 1-2 days.

The can is labeled Luna, with German oilmixtion printed underneath.

Danny
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pat mackle
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Re: Lefranc original gold size.

Post by pat mackle » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:15 pm

Hi Danny. I wonder how old are your cans of LeFranc. It seems to have slowly fallen out of favor/performance in increments as they attempted to alter the mixture to meet enviromental restrictions (as mentioned previously, any small stash of the original LeFranc is a real find)

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