Pock marks in matte centers

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Dan Seese
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Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:22 pm

I just completed a couple of gold leaf windows and noticed on one of the windows that some of the 16kt matte centers have little pock marks in them. Has anyone ever run into this?

I have a theory as to what caused it but wanted to see if anyone else has had this happen. It doesn't look bad unless you look real close so I hope it is just cosmetic and doesn't get any worse.
bubbles.jpg
Close up of 23kt burnished gild and pock marks in 16kt matte center
bubbles.jpg (314.1 KiB) Viewed 6816 times
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
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pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:51 am

What was the brand of size you used, and what was the working(open) time?
What paint did you use to back up over the size?
How long after you burnished the gold did you back it up?

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:24 am

Hey, Pat.
I used One Shot Fast Size with some LeFranc Slow Size mixed in to extend the open time. Here in dry Colorado, that open time can go off pretty quick - which it did. (I don't recall how long it was but it wasn't quite long enough for my liking.)
After both the matte & burnished gilds were completed, I backed it up with some One Shot Metallic paint to fill some of the holidays left after my second gild and then backed it all up with Letterhead Sign Supply's "Gilders Backup Paint"
Again, I'm not sure how long it was after I did the burnished gold that I backed it up.
That could be where the problem lies. I think I did a final wash and then used a heat gun to gently go over everything before backing it up. Possibly there was some moisture trapped but I'm thinking, more likely, that the heat gun may have caused some out-gassing which created the reverse bubbles. Not sure.
Last edited by Dan Seese on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dan
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pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:19 pm

I think the base of the problem is that you mixed One Shot and LaFranc together. I have worked with them separately and they are two different animals. The One Shot seems like it is some sort of synthetic mixture. Just noting the way it skins in the can seems odd. I would almost bet that there is no natural tree based rosin ingredients in that stuff. More like a man made resin of sorts. Although the two products may suspend into each other, they may not link together as they dry and one may be moving to migrate out of the other.

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:27 pm

I think you may have put your finger on the problem, Pat.
The first window I did was just fine. I used Gilder's Fast Gold Size (from Letterhead Sign Supply) mixed with LeFranc slow size. It worked great. When I got to the second window, where I experienced the problem, I was getting to the bottom of what I had left of the Gilder's Fast size so I opted for using a fresh can of One Shot Fast Size. As I mentioned, it went off too fast for my liking.
So that's really the main difference between the two windows.
Into the trash with the One Shot. I'll order some more Fast Size from Letterhead Sign Supply next time I need some.
Hope I don't need to re-do this window. :(
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
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pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:09 am

I quit using the One Shot quick size for gilding, but I did not trash it. Instead I found that if I add a little bit to One Shot Paints, that it "opens up" the paint and
makes it dry faster. Especially the Black lettering enamel. Do an experiment for yourself and see if you get faster drying times.

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:37 am

OK, I haven't trashed my One Shot Fast Size yet so I'll give that a try. But it won't last that long anyway, as you've noted in its tendency to skin over almost instantly.
Regarding the pock marks in the matte centers - I have just a bit of push-back on further reflection:
The marks showed up only after I did the final backup. All my gilding was completed and looked good from the outside of the glass prior to that. Then, when I did the final backup, it was late in the evening so I never really examined it when I was done. I went back a couple of days later and at that time observed the undesirable effect.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
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pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:03 pm

Here's my spin on that One Shot gold size again with another observance. When I have had to remove the One Shot to start over on a gild, I have found that I gets weird and "cheesy" when solvents are once again in contact with it. LaFranc used only by itself will seem to redissolve, but the One Shot "cheeses up" into chunky little rubbery solids. I suspect the solvents in the backup gassed off into your One Shot/Lafranc layer and degraded it enough to break adhesion to the glass. I hate to bag on the One Shot, but this is my evaluation of it compared to all the years of using the older Original Lafranc gold size products.

Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:45 pm

Just to jump in - I've been doing a lot of backing up on Matte window gilds with LSS quick size, then metallic brass one shot, then back up black and finally spar varnish. I can usually do small logos in a day and have never experienced any problems with overlapping on dry times or curing affecting the final gild.

With that said, I don't think it's the backing up process and would likely guess that it's actually causing it.

pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:14 pm

Hi Andrew. I read your post. The way I read it says that you have a system that works fine with no problems, and you can go from start to finish on reasonably sized jobs in a day. This is good to know.
The original issue here I based my input on is the action of combining gold size from different makers and that it may be causing the bubble problem. As you described in your post, you use only straight LSS size product. You do not add One Shot quick size to it. Correct?

Terry Westlin
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Terry Westlin » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:29 pm

I have very little experience with leaf so I am just curious and trying to learn. Looking at this from basically a non leafer.

If this is a reaction to 2 different brands being mixed, would it not have the same effect all the way to the edges, not just the center of the matte giving you bubbles to the edges???

Did this happen to all the centers? Could there have been something on the brush? Glass in the sun and size thick in the center and not ready (skimmed over)?

Just trying to figure why the bubbles don't seem to go the the edge of the matte centers??

I know the experiences here are a 1000 times more than I have so I am just tossing things out that I can think of.

"Just trying to learn something"
Terry

pat mackle
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by pat mackle » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:48 pm

The bubbles would not necessarily go to the edges. Even if the matte gold area was an inch or more wide, the bubbles may not go to the very edge, but stop around the same distance back. The bubble failure appears to happen where there is only an ample amount of gold size surrounding the bubbles, as seen in the running linear length of bubbles, but terminates in its width before going to the edge. Even glue chip glue does a similar action. Chipping wide in wider areas, but hanging on at its perimeter and chipping less at the edges.

Terry Westlin
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Terry Westlin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:42 pm

Thanks Pat

That helps me understand a little more some of the issues and causes. I just couldn't figure why only the center of the matte and not to the edges.
Terry

Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:33 pm

Hey Pat -

I use straight LSS quick size for a lot of my matte only gold jobs. It's ready to gild in about 30 minutes to an hour time and I've even had success screening it vertically believe it or not. However, I have tried to slow the LSS quick size with some rolco slow size and didn't get much help from from the Rolco.

"After both the matte & burnished gilds were completed, I backed it up with some One Shot Metallic paint to fill some of the holidays left after my second gild and then backed it all up with Letterhead Sign Supply's "Gilders Backup Paint"
Again, I'm not sure how long it was after I did the burnished gold that I backed it up."

This is to a T how I've been doing gilds (except LSS quick size), backing up with 1 shot metallic brass, then LSS back up black... I think where you might have erred is by using a heat gun in the process. Adding heat to the process can cause varnish/size to pop or react negatively. If you look at the can on traditional varnishes (with similar formulation to slow size), you usually see a "use between 50-90 degrees" - if your heat gun was pushing up until 150-200 degrees then this could likely be the cause of the bubbling. The one shot size likely has some driers like cobalt or a jap drier that can cause the size to react negatively too.

Pat's probably right about the LeFranc/1shot size mix though. LeFranc is more of the traditional linseed oil+resin slow size whereas 1shot probably has more fast drying resins and other synthetic driers in it making it uncompatible.

As a side note too, I usually paint the entire backs of the letters with one shot metallic, wait 30 to an hour, then back up with LSS back up black and then another 30 to an hour for that to tack then LSS Window Spar and have had no problems to date.

Doug Bernhardt
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:38 pm

I hate to jump in after so much good info here but I gotta add a little... adding a heat gun to anything is bad news as it changes the chemical structure especially to paints and pigments. As to the size mixture I think Pat has pretty much put his finger on it although if I remember correctly the 1shot is actually an old boat varnish so is likely the added synthetic 12hr that's the culprit. I still use a little of the 1shot quick when necessary but agree with most that the new LSS quick size is more "predictable" It's also worth mentioning when it comes to a slow size I've switched over to Luna which still has lead and seems to give same results as the old LeFranc

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:13 pm

Thanks to everyone who contributed your insights here. It's been an education.

Doug, when I apply heat I'm mostly moving the heat gun back and forth to provide warm air-flow to speed up the drying. I don't think it's an inadvertent amount of heat, but that could definitely be a factor if I got things too hot in places.

Andrew, thanks for the tip on the OneShot Metallic Brass. I usually use some Rich Pale Gold #360 mixed in varnish to do the initial backup since it matches gold leaf nicely but didn't have it with me on this window so I used the OneShot Metallic Gold - which really doesn't look nearly as good where it fills the holidays. I'm going to order the One Shot Brass & give it a try.

When you refer to LSS, I assume you're talking about the "Gilders Fast Size" from Letterhead Sign Supply? Great stuff. Worked beautifully on my first window on this job. I add the slow size because the window was too big and it would be ready to gild the letters too soon if I just used fast size. Again, that worked great on the first window but on the second one - using One Shot Fast Size - even with the slow size added, it went-off too soon.

So I'm still lending the most weight to Pat's theory.

Kevin Betz asked me to post a photo of the whole window so here it is. I need to go back and get a better photo with a polarizing lens. The artwork was designed by Chad Michael, a guy who does nice work, specializing in alcoholic package design. (LHF Billhead and John Downer's Brothers were used in his design.)
Attachments
OTD 2nd window.jpg
OTD 2nd window.jpg (264.43 KiB) Viewed 6524 times
Dan
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Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:46 pm

That's one good looking window Dan! Thanks for posting that. LSS refers to "Letterhead sign supply" - Did a bunch of tests to try and slow down the LSS Quick size and a 50/50 mix with LeFranc 12 hour gets the gild/open times between 1-3 hours.

What are your order of operations on jobs like these? Are you using a mask and doing the outlines and centers or just painting in outlines then gilding or ? Always love hearing other people's processes, especially when they turn out this good. Design is stellar too. Definitely one for the books!

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:35 am

Andrew,

On this particular job I used a paint mask. My order of operations, in a nutshell:
  • Obviously I clean the window several times with Bon-ami.

    Apply the mask to the glass. (In my shop, before applying transfer tape to the mask, I weed out the black outlines and shadows.)

    I brush the outlines & shadows using Japan Color with some varnish and a little bit of OneShot Lettering Enamel. After the paint has dried I brush a second coat. My thinking on this is that OneShot bridges from the glass onto the mask too much whereas the Japan Color breaks off fairly clean when I remove the mask. I add the OneShot just to help it flow a little and it also acts somewhat as a carrier, similar to the varnish.

    While the outline is drying I weed out the matte centers. I apply Shadow Kaolin to the centers of the letters so that when I brush in the oil size I can see where I've been and avoid missing spots.

    Then I weed out the the mask for the outlines which will receive the burnished gold leaf.

    When the oil size is ready, I gild all the centers with 16 kt leaf.

    When that's completed I do the water gilding with 4 diamonds per pint and a tiny drop of Ivory dish soap to help the size flow up against the black outlines.

    Remove excess gold with a mop brush and cotton and do a second gild where holidays are present.
    Do a final backup wash with warm water.

    When everything is dry, I brush varnish with gold bronzing powder as a first backup behind the gold. (In the future I'll try OneShot Metallic Brass)

    When that's dry I roll on a final backup with Gilders Back Up Black from LSS. http://letterheadsignsupply.com/glassgi ... ack-enamel

    I remove all the mask, starting with a 1/4" weeding border which I had cut around everything on my plotter.

    Finally, I brush a final varnish outline around everything with Window Spar Varnish.
I agree that it's always interesting to see how different people approach a job and we can learn from each other. I hope this helps.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:47 pm

Hey Dan -

Thanks for being so generous in regards to your methods.

Is there any reason that you are not using the LSS back up black for your outlining work and instead using this custom mix? Seems like one coat of that would be faster than 2 coats of japan/1shot mix, no? I believe Robert Friese uses a similar formulation for outlining.

I like your idea of putting down the Kaolin and then pulling and then painting in the quick size. Been trying to figure out a way to paint in a quick size or varnish and then pull - waiting for the varnish to cure, then lightly scuff with steel wool - then water gild over the whole piece. The matte center work being revealed via the mask being pulled.

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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:45 am

Andrew,

My reason for not using LSS back up black for outlining is that I have some work out there where the black has faded and gotten an unsightly gray over a few years' time. I don't often keep a very good record of what I did on specific jobs but I'm pretty sure I had been using the LSS backup black to do outline work. (The specific one I have in mind had a pretty large black background panel and the fading was very prominent.)

I've talked with several people about my theory including Ron from LSS and though I haven't gotten a definitive answer, I think the backup isn't as lightfast as the paints. It does pretty well as far as not bridging as bad as the OneShot, but that was my convoluted thinking in coming up with my crazy formula. My disclaimer: I guess time will tell.

Regarding the matte centers - I've used the method you refer to of brushing in matte centers, letting it cure overnight and scuffing it lightly with steel wool. That's actually a really nice method if you're doing a single gild. Of course, in this situation, I was doing a double-gild since the centers are 16kt and the burnished outlines are 23kt. So I needed a tacky oil size to do the centers.

On this particular window, where I combined OneShot Fast Size with LeFranc Slow Size, the size skinned over way too fast and I got "chattered" edges in some places from pulling the mask. In the identical window which I did earlier on this job using LSS Fast Size & LeFranc Slow Size, I didn't have that problem. Another reason to ditch the OneShot.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:31 am

Ah thanks for the clarification Dan - I've heard similar about LSS back up black fading to grey before which is somewhat disconcerting. Were these south facing windows? You think it's possible to cut LSS back up black with Ronan Japan to improve pigmentation? I like using back up black and haven't seen this problem yet albeit I'm not up in the mountains or desert.

"16kt and the burnished outlines are 23kt. So I needed a tacky oil size to do the centers." That explains that!

" In the identical window which I did earlier on this job using LSS Fast Size & LeFranc Slow Size" Last test I did of a 50/50 mix I got about a 1-3 hour open time and it had some pretty good flow albeit it definitely needs strained.

Dan Seese
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Dan Seese » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:47 am

Andrew,
The glass door I'm referring to - where the black panel turned grey - faces east. I think I may have brushed around the letters first using OneShot or Japan Color and then rolled LSS Back Up Black in the panel. (Honestly can't recall exactly.) See photo:
Austins gray.jpg
East-facing black panel turned gray.
Austins gray.jpg (179.54 KiB) Viewed 6313 times
The windows I've been addressing in this post are south facing. We'll see how they do over time. We're about a mile above sea level so UV rays seem to do the most damage to our signs.
Your guess is as good as mine regarding cutting LSS Back Up Black with Ronan Japan, but I'm not sure I'd trust it in my environment. (It's a bit disappointing because, like you, I like the product's other properties and I'd prefer to keep it simple - one-stop-shopping if you will.)
Open time varies from location to location and day to day, depending on humidity, temperature, etc. Testing is always appropriate.
Thanks for your interaction. The conversation helps me think things through as I'm always guessing and second-guessing! :?
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)

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vance galliher
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by vance galliher » Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:58 pm

nothing to add...other than we all thank you both for the conversations that benefit us all.
vance
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Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:20 pm

Wow Dan - that is pretty drastic. I have a feeling that on outlines it might not matter too much but for big areas it definitely isn't working. I am guessing that there aren't any UV inhibitors in the paint or that it wasn't formulated for this type of use. Really a ... shame though especially on such a good looking gild.

I got off the phone with Noel earlier today and he suggested that the Nazdar 59000 series was good to use for outlines as it's both screenable and brushable like Back Up Black is. Only downside is it's cure time which is listed as 24-48 hours. I got some being delivered my way soon so I'll let you know how it goes, but I do know it was formulated for outdoor use so it might be a good alternative to One Shot or Japan colors for reverse glass work.

Knowing how Noel works, I'd say it's probably a good option for the situation where you've used a custom mix. Given that it's solvent based, I'm sure you could kick up the dry time if you cut it with hardener and naptha or possibly japan driers if you needed to.

Anyways, I'll report back when I figure out how the 59000 works in these types of situations. Noel likes and uses it a lot and that's one guy you can trust! Good talking too! I hope some people have benefited from a little back and forth problem solving.

vance galliher
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by vance galliher » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:59 pm

...perhaps you didn't read my post Andrew, but we are out here....hahaaa ... and this exchange between you and dan is what mike and others created this site to be. we all benefit from sharing our "stuff "
vance
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Andrew Lawrence
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Andrew Lawrence » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:25 pm

Did a little test -

a 50/50 mix of LSS back up black and nazdar 59000 series, used Naptha to thin and Hardener.

Water gilded it in 2 hours, backed it up with LSS back up and cleaned off the excess. No problems as far as I can see and that amount of 59000 series should be enough to not grey out, but that's something only time could tell.

Ron Percell
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Ron Percell » Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:41 pm

Oil and Synthetic separated, it curdled the gild.
________________________________________________
Want to slow Gilders Fast Gold Size? try adding a small amount of our VOC-free 24 hour size, 100% pure fat oil. Gilders "Honey-Oil" 24 hour Gold Size is designed for surface and Architectural gilding. You may use our bulletin spar varnish to slow (no more than 5-10% if allowed in your area) or fast rubbing varnish to decrease dry times. Slowing in a pinch with maybe linseed.

Now any custom mixes should be tested by mixing your batch 2-5 minutes, let set for 2-3 hours and then mix well again, repeating the process 3 times a day in total, over 3 days, then look for any separation (like oil separates from water) over 3 weeks to 3 months.
________________________________________________
Fast drying screen inks might work for short time, and might of been possible with the old resins, but fast drying screen ink is designed for printing on poly polystyrene and plastics to bite the surface as is clearly stated in the literature provided. it is also very high in pigment, but it's sacrifice in fast dry time leads it to crack and chip of sooner. It must be enhanced do to lack of vehicle-varnish(s) and reducers in this case.
________________________________________________
japan color will uv grey out sooner with it's traditional pigments like Lamp black used since 1889, while many screen inks pigments for black ink now include carbon black enhanced with fine black aluminum oxide which only gets darker with time.
________________________________________________
As paints progress into a world of Modified (Retarded for brush use) Urethane's (that don't blend with mineral spirits), we've seen our paint companies we could trust disappear and get bought all up by companies that already have well established paints that need modification, thank goodness we still have Ronan Sign Paints.

Kevin W Betz
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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Kevin W Betz » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:06 pm

It looks like silicone, wax or water droplets were on the glass before the centers were done.

kb

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Re: Pock marks in matte centers

Post by Ron Percell » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:45 pm

look at the concentrated amber varnish-linseed. if it was silicone, the dots would be clear, nothing would of stick.

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