etched tempered glass problem...

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vance galliher
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etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:20 pm

I have encountered a very unusual situation after etching a panel (27”x 12.5') of tempered glass.
After glass company installed panel, the client called and asked how to clean off some horizonal “lines” that were on the etched side of glass . My question was what “line” is she talking about ?
I blasted this panel in mid july and the glass company didn't pick it up until a few days ago.
since the panel was here for awhile, I had plenty of time to clean it several times (front/back) and really inspect it for any imperfections. It looked great...and when I helped the glass company driver load it on his truck rack, we both looked it over and it was fine.
The panel was no moved from their truck until install the next day, and they used only suction cups to handle/install into transome area above doors. At first I thought the lines may have been caused by the thin rubber cushioning strips on the horizonal 1x4s on their rack. But I took a sample panel down and did a test on the truck's rack...nothing, no marks of any kind.
i've tried cleaning with crl glass spray, rapidtac, paint thinner, applied with cotton cloth , nonscratch scuff pads, and 4 0000 steel wool. Nothing works !! the lines will not come off.
I've considered spot blasting the areas, but another glass artist friend and I went over to school this morning, and his opinion is you can not reetch etch...the lines look etched, but just a shade lighter gray.
Could it be in the tempering process... but why didn't I notice them a my place ??
anyone out there who deals with tempered glass have any ideas on what this might be ? i'll try to load a pic
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Vance photo 4.jpg
Vance photo 4.jpg (310.09 KiB) Viewed 2418 times
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Terry Westlin
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Terry Westlin » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:11 pm

Vance I cant seem to zoom in on your picture to get a real close look.

If it wasn't reverse etched I would say it was overspray off the edge of the mask but since reverse etched it should not be.

I know your a member over at AZ. Maybe post something over there as Jess is a wealth of knowledge regarding glass.

I would maybe take a bright light and side light to see if it's in the glass as an imperfection or it it's in the surface. It should show either way.

Good luck
Terry

Terry Westlin
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Terry Westlin » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:33 pm

Vance I was just thinking on a job I had this spring. There I go thinking again.

I had reverse etched a business logo on 6 panels and brought them over to install. I had used some of the cloth gloves with the rubber on the palms. These were new, never been used. I proceeded to pick up the panels as I had cleaned them several times at the shop and what happened was I had prints all over on the etched side that would not come off.

Something similar could have happened on your panel. What direction did they have the panel on the truck, hor or vert? If vertical that may have been the bumper rubbing during transit????

I used glass cleaner, alcohol etc (like you did) the prints were still there. I ended up using xylene then alcohol, then glass cleaner. I could still see traces but they could not and were happy.

I figured the gloves were in my van (in the Florida heat and humidity) and melted. Leaving residue on the glass that got wicked up into the etched side. I know you have large panels and it may be not much else you can do as it's right out in the open but you may want to try (maybe on just a small part) with the stronger solvent etc.

Other than that, I got nothing.

Again, good luck.
Terry

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:52 pm

IT'S A HEAD SCRATCHER TERRY
vance
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vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:57 pm

didn't mean to send that yet...
here's a reply from az
Hi Vance

I gave a detailed reply which got lost...not sure what I did wrong.

In brief, my guess is that the glass may have had deep scratches before you started. It's not always easy to pick something like this up either before and especially after a blast, unless one holds it up at different angles and with different background lighting angles. I always check my glass very carefully before I start a job.

I recently blasted a badly scratched table top for someone and the results looked similar with the very deep cuts. I work with tempered glass all the time and it's no different from regular glass. It just scratched a lot easier and is risky to carve into.

That's all I can think of....a total shot in the dark :)User avatar
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here's my reply...

it does sound logical that the "scratches"
occurred before I got it...but why didn't I see them before it was installed ? I spoke with the tempering guy today...he said because of length the panel had to tempered narrow end first, so it anything could go wrong the lines would be vertical rather than horizontal
still a mystery in springfield
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:02 pm

danny baronian just called and we had a good long conversation. thanks danny ! the take away from our talk is...try pledge. spray it on wipe it off. i'll give it a go on Monday and see what happens.
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:34 pm

This ought to be interesting! My first guess was oil but I'm not into this any where near what you bunch are.

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:36 am

good to see your name again doug . I hope life is well with you and yours . this is becoming more how this happened rather than how to solve it. I'm open to any and all comments on this matter...
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Tyler Tim
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Tyler Tim » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:05 am

From the look of it... at least from the last pictures. The way the top line has the bloom in the center. To me it looks like maybe (cutting) oil contamination that has wicked into the frost. Maybe try Dawn 2X dish soap see it that will lift it. If it's not that... as a side thought wonder if etching cream would mute/blend in the area?
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Danny Baronian » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:41 pm

Doug,

my thoughts exactly, I've had similar problems.

I'd guess the horizontal lines came from either the side slats on the delivery truck, or something that was stacked with the delivery, or during installation. As they were thoroughly examined prior to delivery, the marks were likely made after it was frosted. The marks look similar in spacing to a glass rack though.

Why didn't they show up right away? Could be because of the change of humidity or change of location due to acclamation, much like wood needs to acclimate to a shop before milling. Could be they were there a while before they were even noticed.

Trying to eliminate specific areas is useless, as it will only highlight, and pronounce the spots. Same goes for any glass cleaner or solvent. The problem with any liquids in specific areas is that, unless the whole area is treated the same time, the solvents / cleaners will dry rapidly around the edges, leaving a ring around the area in question.

Polishing w/ paste or cerium oxide will only add another texture.

A solution was to use hot water and soap to wash the frosted area, finishing with a hot water rinse, and standing them in a vertical drying rack to air dry. This was possible as the plaques were only 8 - 12" square. If care wasn't taken during installation, and finger prints were visible, they were returned to the shop for cleaning. The hot water rinse results in drying at an even rate over the whole surface, leaving no drying marks.

Since this project is installed in an interior hallway, washing down the whole piece is impractical.

Since it can't be cleaned on site, Pledge was suggested, a furniture polish that imparts a non-oily film that helps hide fingerprints and imperfections. The thought is, if there are finger prints or contamination of the surface, spray the entire surface w/ pledge, making the tone of the etch consistent.

Rick (Esoteric Sign Co.) used to sell Smudge Guard, which was used for the same purpose. The contents were not listed, though it appears, and smells like a water based product, and the source / make up of that is probably long gone.

The attached photo show several small smudges on glass, the following after pledge was applied and wiped down with a cotton rag. Ops, last photo hit the floor. Spray on pledge, let sit for a few minutes, wipe clean. Evened out the entire etch.

Will it work on such a large piece is unknown, but worth a shot prior to starting over with a new glass.

Keep us posted Vance.

Danny
Attachments
_1 Before.JPG
_1 Before.JPG (121.7 KiB) Viewed 2343 times
_3 BrokenSample.JPG
_3 BrokenSample.JPG (69.46 KiB) Viewed 2343 times
_2 Sample.JPG
_2 Sample.JPG (81.57 KiB) Viewed 2343 times
Danny Baronian
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vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:02 pm

tyler, the "bloom" was removed after photo with crl cleaner...i'll try a few more things tomorrow. I have a couple better photos but I don't know how to resize them in CorelDraw.
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Terry Westlin
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Terry Westlin » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:59 pm

Vance

In corel (coreldraw not corel photo paint) you can just export the selected picture. In export, pick "for web" and that usually does a pretty decent job of down sizing images.
Terry

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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:08 pm

Well here's the reason all the old tymers used white acid for this. Also called french embossing. Just wash with regular cleaner and looks like new. I do wonder however if the abrasion-hand obscuring method (with a block of glass and some sort of granule) would give the same problem/results. I have some descriptions in old books on how this was done but as I never got deep into glass work it's not on top of my mind....like many things these days! :=/

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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:35 pm

easy for you to say terry..hahaaa I panic if someone hands me a remote control !
I,m in corel, click on photo, click export,...save as jpeg. places to go, but no "for web" ? where would that be ? I appreciate you help...thank you
vance
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Terry Westlin
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Terry Westlin » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:16 pm

Sorry Vance, I have x7 if your in an earlier version I don't know when they add "export for" In x7 it's in File, then go down to just under export, says "export to"

If your in an older version you should still be able to rescale easy by going to the upper toolbar

Click on bitmaps, then resample. Change to 72 or 96 for the resolution and it will drastically lower the file size.
You will loose some quality as well.

If you still have trouble I can write up a little instruction for you (tomorrow eve) so you can save to higher quality but smaller file size.
Terry

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:42 pm

I have x5...i'll give it a try tomorrow. thanks terry
in fact, tomorrow the glass panel is coming back to me...i'll do at test blast on two small lines in lower corner and see if they're on the glass or in the glass

hopefully they will be gone
vance
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vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:16 am

terry, I found "export to web"...I was just selecting "export" thinking I would find it there (duh... not seeing the forest for the trees )
how do I change the resolution in "export to web" ? the preset is custom, JPEG, RGB color, standard. when I click "save as" and try to upload into forum with "add to file" I get the following message...

"The image must be at least 0 pixels wide, 0 pixels high and at most 850 pixels wide and 850 pixels high. The submitted image is 2291 pixels wide and 791 pixels high."

how/where do I go to make the image smaller (?)
vance
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Tyler Tim
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Tyler Tim » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:50 am

If you have the image up... you should under the edit or image tag, find resize click... and adjust... than save image as... jpeg to folder you can find. This way you still have the image in it's original state.
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:38 am

sorry this thread is turning into a how to help vance post a photo...but I still don't get it ?
tyler, when you say image up, do you mean having the photo on my page in CorelDraw ?
I then click edit, but there is no "resize" in edit
vance
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pat mackle
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by pat mackle » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:47 pm

I just saw this post. I noticed the thinness and length of those lines. And that since the panel is so long that it was affixed to the truck in the horizontal position against the horizontal ribbed rubber strips on the glass frame. Also that the lines are fairly close to each other which suggests that a "pinch bar" used to hold the glass tight to the rack was probably applied there, and most likely one or two more were also applied. (Are there any other lines like to two in the photo anywhere else on this panel. Maybe only one bar was used and the rest secured by rope?) How far did the truck travel to the job site? My feeling is that the pinch bar held this section pretty tightly to those rubber ribs. And while in transit the frosted surface worked itself against these rubber ribs which "deburred" some of the frosted glass micro sized flakes off the once evenly etched surface. It is an effect almost like you see in acid toned glass where the surface is "back polished" a bit to alter light transmission. Essentially, the large frosted areas have had the frost back polished by the small amount of movement that was exerted while riding against the rubber ribs. When sand blasting is affected in this way, the transmission of light is changed and the lost of whitish flakes causes the etch to appear less white. Looking very much more like there is a contaminate on the glass like oil or fingerprints. And ironically, the more you focus on rubbing or cleaning the area, the more whitish flakes of frosted glass will be removed and the spot will stand out. Sand blasting is very finicky, impossible to make small repairs by hand grinding, and almost as impossible to reblast areas. Because a blast of sand is hotter(whiter) in the center, and fades as it dissipates to more of a satin etch.

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:05 pm

You are right on the mark pat ! The truck was my suspect soon into the detective investigation ..hahaaaa
and the glass company agreed... it's been a fun and full of thought inquery
...they gave me the panel back today and I have til sunday to fit it.

and my resolve to “fix it” has almost been like devine intervention
and i'm not a religious man
but I do believe in making lemonaid....when I learn to post photos I'll do that
vance
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Tyler Tim
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Tyler Tim » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:09 pm

vance galliher wrote:sorry this thread is turning into a how to help vance post a photo...but I still don't get it ?
tyler, when you say image up, do you mean having the photo on my page in CorelDraw ?
I then click edit, but there is no "resize" in edit
Sorry,,, gave you PS edit. Try to manually resizing... ie, hold down Shift and resize it using the handles of one corner. See of that works for you.
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:36 pm

not yet tyler...on my 8.5x11 page size in corel, I can only reduce the photo to 551 KB before it's almost too small to see on page .. upload instruction says max size allowable is 526 KiB. ??
the NEW!:POSTING PHOTOS on this Forum claims it's very easy, but I just don't get it ?
vance
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Terry Westlin
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Terry Westlin » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:45 pm

Vance just open the photo in corel, select it then go to the top toolbar "bitmap"

Now go to "resample" in the resolution box set it to 96 or 72 dpi. This is all that most web pages can be viewed at anyway.

It will not change the actual size of the photo unless you change the size as well by changing the image size (in the same dropdown)

The resample image will be a much smaller file size and will upload just fine. At the bottom of the page you will see how small the file size is after the resample. And as stated earlier to "save as" in a folder you can find and with a different file name than the original so you still have the original image.

I just looked at the photo post you mentioned and it also says a 700 pixel max as well. In the same drop down menu (just above desolution) it will give you a image size with a pick box. Hit the pick box and change to pixels then go to the largest number and change to 700 or 650 pixels. Again save as (different file name)

Now that I have confused you.... hehehe. I should have found the image upload specs first. sorry
Terry

Tyler Tim
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Tyler Tim » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:09 pm

Vance... You need a simple image editor Take a look at GIMP it's a free program that has lots of bells and whistles but is easy to use. Can save in many formats even PDF. Real easy to resize and correct colors add text adjust resolution and so forth.

Another KISS option... open the image in MS Paint and resize and save as... reduce by 55% H and W should do it. :wink:
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

vance galliher
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:31 pm

as a post to pat's reply...
you can't clean a deburr out but you can blast it away ..and your correct, I rubbed a little to much in same small areas. (with 0000 steel wool ...out ... line, out ! hahaaa) and there is more of a polish look.

they took out the transom panel yesterday and returned to me. I did a test blast on a lower corner area that had several small lines. the re-etch removed them, but left a slightly different tone in that area. I have decided to re blast the whole panel with green diamond sand ( a bit courser than silicon carbide I normally use) . I’m using clear vinyl as the mask and a clear backing sheet ( the backing sheet for translucent vinyl ) for easy lineup...I’m also adding a slight contour (1/8”) to the letters as a cushion. the contour shade will be soft etch as before, and the bkgd will now have a grainier look ....maybe creating a little more interest than just a monotone blast (?)
I’m doing a test panel tomorrow to be sure. I’ll post a pic.
I did my sample and I'm very pleased with result....if I knew how to post pic I would

so I'm learning what not to do...and what i can do...
isn't that what it's all about ?
vance
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pat mackle
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by pat mackle » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:46 pm

Thank you for the follow up on how you intend to solve this. I was going to suggest that the only real way to make it perfect again was to relay all the letter masking down a re-blast the entire panel evenly. But I did not think most people would opt to do that, even though it is the only way(unless you are really clever) to make the customer completely happy. I have learned to blend in these mistakes but it involves some skill/experience and using what I refer to as a "dodging tool" which is basically thin cardboard or Masonite with a hole cut in it, which is used to blast through at some distance from the glass. This dodge tool is used to adjust the focus of the grit as it comes from the nozzle, essentially "dodging out" the finer outer mist of sand projected from the nozzle and allowing the more powerful sand to strike the glass. This is because the outer mist creates less of a whiter frost, appearing more satin in tone. Anyone new to sand blasting glass soon recognizes the difficulty in getting a nice even frost on large areas. They usually begin with glass that reveals "trails" in it from blasting too close or with too much pressure.

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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by vance galliher » Sun Aug 28, 2016 10:25 pm

it's been re masked ,re etched, and re cleaned...and it looks spectacular !!
learned a lot about etching on this one . like water marks, don’t let the wet dry..wet and wipe, wet and wipe .... and lacquer thinner is a friend
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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by pat mackle » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:35 am

I don't even wipe my frosted glass as even that can leave marks. I lightly squeegee off the just cleaned and rinsed panel, and finish it off from top to the bottom with an electric leaf blower. I even supply clean cotton gloves to the customers installers when they come to load it on their truck. Then I tell them it's up to them not to make a mess of it with an addition of "don't bring it back". I really hate frosting large glass, and have tried MANY ways to heal the frosting against finger prints. Now I tell my customers to either have it treated, or just ignore the initial fingerprints and marks until the frost collects an even patina that will eventually blend all the frost evenly.

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Re: etched tempered glass problem...

Post by Danny Baronian » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:39 pm

Photos added 8/29/16 to Vance's last post.
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