Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

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Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:27 pm

Hello everybody,

I am from the Netherlands, and spend already a lot off hours on this forum.
My hobby is working with glass, and I begin with tiffany 30 y ago. After that I begin with fusing glass, and was always looking for new techniques on the internet.
Then i found the site of David Adrian Smith, (UK) and i was blowen away!
I was looking for weeks if there was a second-hand Spatzier Lathe on the internet, but to find that is very difficult.
Then I was thinking: you are going much to fast Freddy! You have to start at the beginning.
I found some pictures off work from Erik Winkler, and I like the gilded glass with some parts chipped! It is a beautiful effect.

I bought some chipping glass hide glue, at a store 100 km away. Also gelatine capsules, and one shot black paint, and gold leaf loose.

Meanwhile I get contact with Bruce Jacson (Australia) and he gived me a few good tips and internetadresses.

Finaly i could begin with testing with the glass chipping.


My first attempt to chip without using the lightbox.
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drawing letter and plotted in aslanfoil
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The chipping was not completely, but i already liked the result for the first time.

Then i read something about humidity off the air on the forum. When the humidity is high the glue don't get his strenght to pull off the glass.

I decided to make my chipping/drawing table.
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After that I begin with building the top-box and the lower-box to keep the heated (by the lamps) air inside.
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After that I drilled several holes in the lower-box, to let heated air in.(from the central heating on the wall)
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My story is not ready yet, but i cannot upload more photos. I hope it can after I upload this part.

No, it is not possible to upload more photos. Do i have to make "Novice glass chipping 2"?
Last edited by Alfred de Goeij on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Danny Baronian
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Re: Novice glass chipping

Post by Danny Baronian » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:20 pm

Hi Alfred,

add to your original post. Go to the top of the page you posted on, select 'new reply' add your text and more photos. Add more as necessary.

What type of lights did you use, they look like LED's? I'm not sure if they put out any heat. Florescent lights are generally used, and put off about 100°, which is all that's needed.

Nice job for the first time. Use the 'search' tab at the top of the forum, you'll find considerable info on lights, glue chipping and many techniques related to glass work.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:37 am

Danny Baronian wrote:Hi Alfred,

add to your original post. Go to the top of the page you posted on, select 'new reply' add your text and more photos. Add more as necessary.

What type of lights did you use, they look like LED's? I'm not sure if they put out any heat. Florescent lights are generally used, and put off about 100°, which is all that's needed.

Nice job for the first time. Use the 'search' tab at the top of the forum, you'll find considerable info on lights, glue chipping and many techniques related to glass work.

Danny

Thanks Danny, i can go on now. The lamps are ordinary 36 W.

Fred

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:29 am

After I drilled the 100mm holes in the lower-box, I made an slide to control the heated air from the central heating. During the test I see if it is useful or not. Sometimes here in Holland, whe hang a little porcelain pot filled with water against the CV, because the warmed air is very dry. For me it is a good thing now.
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Next to the glass in the table I drilled 15mm holes (12 pcs between the lamps) so the warm air can reach the top-box where the glass is laying to chip.
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I think the table is ready to begin some testing. I orded a temparature/hygrometer to see and capture what is going on in the top-box.
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I made the table on information here on the Hand Lettering Forum, and some tips from David Adrian Smith and I want to thank you all for that.
So finally i can begin to do some tests.

Fred

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:10 am

To make some tests I used floatglass 3 mm and to mask the glass, sandblasting foil. The mask is not so important right now, its only for testing.

The chipping glue i bought a few weeks ago, says not how much grade it is. I understand it must be 165 gr., only the sticker says "chipping glue".
I know now by this forum that there are a lot of different hyde-glue's.
So i begin with some tests with the chipping glue i have now, but in the meanwhile while i must wait during the drying proces, I was searching in Holland and Europe to buy some things from the brand name Gilder's. This because I use the glass-chipping gide from Bruce Jacson in Australia.
I contacted him also, and I wanted to use the same Gilder's stuff, so when something go's wrong it is not by using other things.

I even call to the UK and US to get more information about the things I want. My account by PayPal was last used in 2004, and I have re-activated it for doing international paying.
Maybe there are other brand names for the things I nead, but for now iI keep it by Gilder's. I hope my order is coming soon. (the frightcost are almost the same as the costs for the materials!)

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:00 am

The first tests i made is on 3mm float-glass, and i taped it with sandblast-foil. Its only to seperate the lines. I used silicon-carbid 180, to 'frost" the glass.
I blast it in my cabinet for getting grip for the glue.
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I was guessing about the temparature of the glue.
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Hoping my glue-pot arrives soon.
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On this glassheet I did several methods to put on the glue. After that I put it in my kiln, that I normale use for fusing glass.
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The temperature was 60 dgr C but it didn't work out. At that point I deside to make the chipping table.
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Last edited by Alfred de Goeij on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:17 am

In one of my tests, I let the glass heat up in the box while i was making the glue above the candlelight. When the glue was ready (I think) I put it on the glass and leave it in the box. The next day not everything was come of.
I think it was because after I put on the glue, I had to take it out of the box, and let it coole down. When it was coole down, then I did the edges with a sharp knife and put it back inside the box.
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I put the sheet in a bag in the frezer and after 1 hour it almost fall off!
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For test I let 1 block clear on the glass, to see wat happens with the glue. The glue get's no grip on the glass.
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I also noted, that on the glass above I used a mix of 1 hyde glue/1 water.

Also make a test with 1 hyde glue/1 1/2 water, and then the profile is much smaller.
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Yesterday evening I made a new test: 1/1 and first let it cool down before i put it in the box again. I look for a small moment so it didn't cool down to much and make a picture. While I am making the last messages i am hearing the glass popping sometimes!
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On the right side is a peace of glass where two lines didn't chip at all. They where don by brush one time, and I brush them again and put them back in the box again, to see wat happening.

I hope that everybody understand my story, it was a lot of work (also voor google translate! haha)


Greatings,

Fred
The Netherlands.

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:44 pm

It is very motivating that so many people respond on my story...................... :cry: , but oke, I show the result of the last test.
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If there is anybody out there, how have advice or tips for me, please let me now. This is the first time i test with hide glue and I want to now if I am on the right track.

Greatings,

Fred
The Netherlands

pat mackle
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by pat mackle » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:29 pm

You are depositing too much dried glue by volume on your glass. You might want to add just a bit more water to thin the mixture down a bit. When your glue curls off in a single long piece as seen in the photos it is a sign that you are applying the glue too thick. As you can see, there is a consistent margin of unchipped glass along the perimeter of the areas, AND it is rolling off in one solid thick strip. When chipping glue is laid too thick, it has no room for the formation of initial fissures that should begin to appear in the drying glue layer. Fissures must form to allow the glue to form some fracture lines WITHIN the glue area. Fissures are what allow the glue to fracture into "powerhouse" areas of segmented glue that will chip and fly away in random flakes. These types of flying flakes are what create the deeper and more brightly reflective chips that show so brightly when silver or gilded. You should do some experimenting in laying down thinner layers of glue to understand how it affects various types of glue chips. You should create an adjustable glue spreading tool and use it to test scrap pieces of glass. This will give you a much better idea of the nature of animal glue and how you can better control it's results. Also too, the steps of drying the glue, including letting it stand for several days before introducing heat to chip it can result in different chipping effects. Try seeing how little glue you can apply, and still get a fully chipped area. In your photos above, the "A" resembles more on the chips that I am referring to. The later long rolling glue chips suggest to much glue. I think you want to be in between those to results.

Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:29 am

Thank you for your comments Pat. I also think that the temperature of the glue was not right. I was guessing about it.
A few days ago i recieved my order from the US included a gluepot with termostat.

So I picked a logo from my doughters waterpolo-club.

After frosted the patern in my sandblastcabine, I painted the patern extra with asfaltum, so the glue cannot pull the foil up when its drying.
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Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:48 am

I put on the lights of my chippingbox and let it warm up the glass. In the meantime the gluepot warms up the glue.
The mix of the glue i did now by weight, and not by volume. I put on the glue with a squese botlle.
When I was ready with filling the patern, I shut of the lights in the shipbox, and wait till the other day.

The next day I see that the glue was starting to dry, and some parts beginning to chip.
My wife needed a new vacuumcleaner, so I take the hose and fabricate a small van to circulatie the warm (dry) air inside the box.
I put a cheap hygrometer inside, and as you see results: 10 % humidity and about 45 gr C.
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Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:11 am

After 1 day more I open the box to see what the result was. I was forgotten to make pictures of it!!
I removed the foil and clean up the glass.
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Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:42 am

Next stage: gold leaf.

After looking at the pannel for 20 min. ( I was nervous to start) I had no idee where to begin. You work from the bottom and go up, or from the top down?
It is diffycult in one hand the tip with the goldleaf, and the other hand the brush with the gelatine water. But I started to try.
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Alfred de Goeij
Posts: 17
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by Alfred de Goeij » Sun May 07, 2017 9:35 am

It was for the first time difficult to het the goldleafs on the glass. It looks easy but I have 23 krt gold, and when let it stick on the brush (goldtip) it wrinkels before I put it one the glass. Oké, when it dry, the most of it is away, but i don't liked it.
Is there a big differance between the quality between the goldleafs?
Then I see that the glass is not cleaned enough, before I started. I can see it when I gilded the middle section.
But I like the result for the first time. And I know now what is important, so I learn a little bit more!
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pat mackle
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Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by pat mackle » Wed May 10, 2017 1:50 am

Good to see the progressive steps in your learning process. I think the 180 grit abrasive is a bit too fine for glue chipping. It does not fracture the surface of the glass as well as 100 or 120 grit will. They also give a rougher surface for the glue to bond to. The courser the grit that you sand blast with, the brighter the areas between the glue chips will be, and reflect the gold better than if blasted with 180 grit of finer. If you have time, do a little experiment in blasting with a course grit on a sample glass, and blast another sample glass with your 180 grit. Then gold leaf the two samples and you will see that the fine grit gild is dull and muddy, while the courser grit is brighter with tiny brightly gilded chips among the blasting. I discovered this difference when I was restoring antique glue chipped glass signs and noticed that the gilded glue chipping had many tiny bright reflections in amongst the larger gilded glue chips.

pat mackle
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Novice glass chipping (build chipping/drawing table)

Post by pat mackle » Wed May 10, 2017 2:04 am

Also, I noticed that there is still a lot of remaining sand blast in your designs that did not chip. The glue lost it's grip on that glass because it was not fully dry. Sometimes this is caused by force drying the glue too rapidly which dries the top of the glue before the bottom fully dries to the blasted surface. You really want nearly all of that area to fully chip. These unchipped areas suggest that the glue in contact with the glass was not as dry as it could have been when you moved the glass into your heating device. If you could let that glue dry for another day without force, more invisible water will evaporate and the glue will be fully adhered tightly when it begins to shrink and pull the glass chips away.

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