Layout rules

[William Holohan]

OLD FORUM POSTS

Posted by Bob on July 05, 2003

Hi Guys,
I was looking at some old pictures of signs from the late 1800s to around the early 1900s.
And some thing struck me, no layout rules as we use today.
There were no margins , no negative space, no seeming thought to letter style.
It just was "Fill Up" the sign blank or wall.
Does anyone know when the layout principles we use now started being used? (ie. Mike Stevens )
From what I can figure out, it's realitivly new, maybe around 1910-20.
I'm sure like most, I have Strong's, and other books from around the early 1900s, and I know there are layout princibles in there.
So I was wondering if anyone has researched this/ Bob

Rick

It is my belief that early typographic "rules" were mastered at The Bauhaus in Germany and in Pre-Soviet Russia. I think print technology of the Victorian Period pushed all other mediums, including signage, to over-do information and graphics, it was just the style at the time. In the late 1800's a different school of thought had followed the end of the Industrial Revolution to a minimalistic aproach. The art Deco period is a perfect example of clean lines and light copy, it was the "style", but art schools and the media, all over the world were taking thier cues from The Bauhaus and the new "modern" typographic design. Sign Painters(designers) just followed that trend. IMHO. Some great reads and references are "Graphic Style", "Typology", and "Design Connoisseur" by Stven Heller.

Rick

Mike Jackson

Hi Bob,
Hmmmmmmmmm. I think I respectfully disagree! I scanned back through an Atkinson, Henderson and also a Stongs book from that period. For any one that might seem crowded, there was at least one that was pleasingly spaced. The period of time was much more into "more is better" than simplicity. Much of the "crowding" we might see in solid black and white would have probably been adjusted by softer colors in the ornamentation.

By the time you get to the golden era of the showcards and movie posters, sub copy lettering really took a minor roll. Much of what you see in Mike Steven's work was influenced by Don Sturdivant's book and work. The images above were from his 1948 book. It predates Mike's published work by over 30 years--but you can certainly see the influence.

If you only look at a small cross section of the turn of the century stuff, maybe you could be watching for the crowded ones. They certainly existed (same for today), but there are wonderful examples of outstanding design concepts.

Good post!
Mike Jackson

Robare M. Novou

"Bill Boley Basiks of lettering" 1952, was proably another influence on Mike Stevens.
The book was lite on layouts, but heavy on letter construction in styles much like Stevens.

H.C. Martin's 1928 book "1000 Practical Show Card Layouts" is also a marvelous old time book on layout and color.

Sign Correspondence Courses and Sign Schools at the turn of the century provided Layout instruction as well as Lettering Construction.
I.C.S. and The Detroit School of Lettering were two of the better known ones.

Find these references and see for yourself, you won't be disappointed.

RMN

Bob

Hi Mike,
Thats for the explination, and the pics, Boy don't ya just love a well done showcard?
I sent you a picture of what I was refering to, I'm not sure how to post one here.
It will show you what I was seeing in those layouts, maybe my time period is off, but I see it a lot.
Thanks again for your help, I never cease to learn on this site.. Bob

Bob Photo

Here's the photo Bob forwarded to me. This photo looks like it was from the 30s or 40s to me...and it looks more like an amateur than a trained sign painter. You can go down just about any commercial street in the country today and see a similar one! I see overcrowding, improper fonts, and overly distorted distortions all over town here in 2003, so it is hard to say the industry as a whole has EVER learned. It seems the ones who do figure it out stand out from the rest.

Mike Jackson

Mike Jackson
Another image from Strong's

Short of having "scanner wars" (which would be fine), here is a scan from a Strong's Book of Designs. Lots of negative space!
Mike

Harry Malicoat
Another image from Strong's

It is my humble opinion (without having been there), that our advantage with layout, etc. is the ability to study what the best our field has to offer on a regular basis. We have several great magazines. We have letterhead meets. We have this site where it is talked about regularly. In the old days they had an occasional book (and eventually Signs of the Times), but not every shop even owned ONE, more or less the libraries that many of us own today. We have the oportunity to see the fine work that was done at a show on the other side of the world before some of the guys even get home

.

Rick Sacks

Trends in layout altered rapidly as society became mobil. The faster we go, the less copy we can read.

Kimberly Zanetti

Rick, You mentioned that the faster we go as a society, the less we can read. It seems to me that to counteract that, you have people trying to jam more into a sign in the hopes that part of it will be caught by those passing eyes.
Just playing the devil's advocate!

Bob, When you made that commment about, Don't you love a well-done Sho-Card?!...I could feel my father and many others smiling down. It's such a great lost art.

Kent Smith

10-4 I think that much of what is lost in complex copy, is that our mobility is faster now than the walking speed of man or horse. That certainly changed the effectiveness of shocards and glass signs as well. Even at "the mall" no one strolls, they hurry from store to store, intent on making a quick purchase and on to the next. The department store cards we made when I started were for the "shoppers" not just the "buyers".

cam bortz

Then, just as now, there were clearly wide disparities in the level of skills and the dedication of the individual signpainter to improve his work. For every Atkinson there were thousands of hacks, giving junk away to people with no taste. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Bob

Well said Cam. Bob

D. Bernhardt

okay...so way down here is my bit. I recall very well that when a client came in with humungus amounts of copy we set him straight right off the bat....you know sort of like...buy one pizza get a second free...rather than list all the exotic extras and qualifications etc etc etc. And he was always pleased to hear how much less it was dollar wise! If he did want all the extra text he was quoted the appropriate price.....and just a quick aside here....boy did i do my share of Bananas 10c`lb and pizza posters!