Posted by Robare M. Novou on March 02, 2004
Danny BaronianI waited long enough for someone to read something in the 1934 Felix Andres patent.
Its been overlooked or its been posted and I overlooked it. Either way, I'll just post this finding and see what you all think. The patent reads....
"After sufficient deposit is obtained on the surface, a thin coat of tin chloride solution is applied, and preferably a chamois skin is used to dry up the surface."
So, in bringing this matter to the forum...I'm curious as to why would one apply tin solution to the glass, gild or silver over that, and then apply another coat of tin solution on top of the gild or silver.
Now I've heard of sizing the back of your glass leaf gilding and letting that dry, to create a barrier between the gold leaf and the backup paint, thus preventing the penetration of oil based backup paint through the gold leaf.
So would that be the reason for the extra coat of tin onto the gold in solution gilding?
I had to ask!
RMN
I assume your referring to what was then called gold tinning. Andres instructions may have been the procedure of the day, but today the glass is throughly washed and rinsed and tinned with stannous chloride. Stannous chloride - used to do the tinning - is a sensitizing agent which allows the gold or silver to adhere to the glass.
After tinning gold chloride is applied. Following a sufficient deposit, the glass is rinsed and then silvered. With gold, the deposit is thin and transparent. Silvering over the gold serves to deepen the gold and to protect the back. If you apply gold chloride alone and wipe across the surface, the gold will easily wipe off.
With gold or silver, only the initial tinning is required. Once the final silver has been applied either over gold or silver by itself, you have to use silver strip to remove it.
Danny
Mike Jackson
Robar M. NovouRobare,
You are probably one of only a half dozen people who have ever actually read Andres' patent.
I'd suggest part of the reason was to prepare the surface for the mirror solution. I have no idea why he would use a chamois in the process. Did he pour mirroring solutions after he did the gold?
It sounds like he let the tin solution dry on the back of the gold, which is something I have been told not to do if silvering over the back.
Mike
Mike Jackson - Just give me the keysYes, the tin solution was poured on over the gold and dryed after the gold had been layed down on to the tinned glass. I didn't include the previous paragraph to the one I posted, as I thought that you may have opened up the book and read those parts of the 1934 patent that I refered to.
So are we missing a step in our solution gilding ways?
Who wants to be the test subject on this one?
RMN
Robare,
Looks like you might have to be the candidate test subject! I don't want to invent or solve Angel Gilding...nor do I want to build a car. I just want to buy the car and get the keys to it so I can get where I need to go. Respectfully speaking, you are the one selling the book! I thought Angel Gilding was working right now?
I skimmed over your book, and knew right away I didn't want to melt down gold coins with acid to get the solution. Glad to know Sarah is willing to do that!
Mike
Robare M. Novou
Mike Jackson - Tinning ConcentrateAngel Gilding is working fine for the most part.
I just wondered if what I read in the patent was a typo or what? And seeing how we have all been disecting patents the past few months...I thought someone else might had seen this step of the process. Its not at the beginning of the patent, but near the end in his claim section.
Some things we may never know. And yes, if I get the time I will give it a try and see what transpires.
RMN
Robare M. NovouI have been feeling like the tin solution has been one of the "iffy" variables when doing Angel Gilding. Rick used to include a small bottle of Stannus Chloride crystals and a popsicle stick with about 1/4" died with purple paint on the end. You would dip that stick into the crystals and pour it into something like 10 oz of water. (I don't remember the exact amout of water right off the top of my head).
Here's the problem...I bought several kits from him over the years and none of them had the same amount of purple paint on the stick. You never really knew whether pile on as much powder as you could, or just cover the dye. Depending on the amount of dye on the stick and how well you loaded it, I figure it is possible to get either half as much or twice as much powder on one batch to the next.
Sarah sent a small bottle of tinning solution concentrate with my kit. I say "small" because I used it up pretty quick, knowing I made new tinning solution each day I tried Angel Gilding. I liked the solution because the instructions say to mix 10 ML to 10 OZ of water. I can mix either of those two amounts quite accurately from batch to batch.
I ordered a pint of Peacock's H-41 sensitizing solution a coupl of weeks ago to replace the empty bottle from the original kit. The pint of solution was $50. When my Visa bill came in, I see it cost me another $40 for hazardous shipping fees. OUCH! According to the specs, it has a shelf life of a year (I don't know how long it has already been on their shelf). At 10 ML per 10 OZ of water, I have plenty for a long time.
Danny BaronianWell now, Im not asking you if you want to solve the mysteries of the universe...Im just making reference to something I read in the patent. I was puzzled by this twist on tinning the back of already solution gilded glass. So I thought that some of this sites readers would also have caught this twist and wondered about it or had done it to see what results from doing so.
Also...one of the mistakes I constantly make..is not letting my freshly mixed gold solutions age for one hour or more, as stated in some of the patents,formulas, and ricks instructions....without letting it age or mature...I end up with a bad gild, regardless of the tinning concentration.
Has this happen to you?
RMN
I have seen no mention of double tinning outside your reference to Andres, and would skip that.
A number of people are still trying to pin down the tinning solution strength. One mirroring book calls for super sensitizing the glass. Based on that I think Rick's purple popsicle stick produced too weak a solution to super sensitize for gold, but I'm not positive.
Watching Dave Smith at the Conclave, his method is from experience, watching the results and adjusting accordingly. He used more than Rick's one popsicle stick worth.
Regarding waiting after mixing the gold chloride into a working solution, I think that applies to mixing the raw materials rather than mixing what was in Rick's kit. In the kit distilled water was added to his gold chloride solution.
If you want to be on the safe side but not wait several hours or over night, the solution can be placed in a microwave and zapped for 10 second bursts, or placed in a hot water bath. All you want to do is warm it slightly, not boil it.
Danny
Sarah King
Sarah KingI tinned the gold by accident once and, as I recall, it went from brilliant to matte. Might be an interesting thing to do on purpose - I'll have to try it again. Tin will tarnish the silver. Anyway Andres was more interested in explaining his spray device than in the gold. You'd think a person would proof-read his patent before sending it in but Andres sentence there reads like a typo. Maybe he meant to write silver instead of tin.
Danny - I think one of the other differnces about the way Dave mixes and uses the tin is that he takes the tinned glass outside and blasts it with a hose. Put more on - take more off. It all depends on what kind of drain and hose you have. No one could say that his method doesn't work given his results.
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