Signs From Sydney Australia

[Will Lynes]

Hey guys here are a few signs I saw a while ago in an antique store here in Sydney. Does anyone know what the finish is in the Caldwell Wines mirror (sorry not the greatest flicks). Its not a finish I have really seen before. Cheers Will

[Roderick Treece]

Thanks for the photos. The texture in that piece is a mica acid emboss.Enjoyed seeing those.

[Larry White]

I would be lead to believe that the texture on the Caldwell's lettering is a "spounged" acid resist, like asphaltum, into the open area of the letter centers, then a face up liquid acid emboss.....

but what do I know....

-William Blake

[DAVE SMITH]

Hey there Willy. Larry is right on the nail. It's a traditional English way of embossing text and backgrounds sponged with Brunswick black or Ashaltum. When you were here we acid etched with mica but on this sign and some others its been lead foil backed and then stippled with the Brunswick once it's dry it's flooded with acid, probably 1 part to 4 parts for an hour or poss 2,this gives a nice clean emboss without aggresion, it looks like mica but not really nessasary with all the sponged effect going on. Did you buy them?

great find mate.

Daver

[Will Lynes]

Thanks guys!! No Dave didn't buy them. The $9000 price tag on the wines mirror was a little pricey for me.

[BruceJackson]

Yes, nice find...Which shop is it? I'll go and have a look next time I am in Sydney.

$9000 is hitting pretty hard, but i suppose the days of finding bargain prices on old mirrors is going to disappear completely, if it hasn't already.

Incidentally, for non-Australian readers, the Tooth's KB lager was a well-known old Sydney brand that commissioned a lot of mirrors, many of them with full pictorials featuring sports themes. These days you usually only see them inside, but originally, they were mounted on the outside walls of the hotels as advertising.

Somewhere, I have a book on Sydney pubs featuring a few photos of some Tooth's pictorial mirrors. I'll try to find it and post a few online.

[DAVE SMITH]

Hi Bruce. Been meaning to ask you for some time your thoughts on what was used for pictorial transfers that were applied to the back of those panels? I know some were painted by hand but also alot were paper litho transfers which held up very well. Lee littlewood made a alot of research into waterslide transferes but I always wondered what they would of used for an adhesive for the paper pictorials, they never seem to go yellow from the ones I have seen and worked on. depending the light source and position of the glass is probably a big factor.

Thanks
Dave

[Lee Littlewood]

so for "lead foil backed" work you apply the foil to the glass, cut out the centers with a knife and weed them, then sponge a resist on and expose to acid?
What holds the foil to the glass?
Can you re-use the foil?

It sounds like a harder way to do what we do now with silkscreen; but then it probably didn't get bleeds and pinholes, or break down after a long time in the bath. Why would you do a long time in the bath?

Lead foil seems like another old material with a lot of uses that has totally gone away; maybe to the benefit of our health. I think I remember reading about cutting lead foil stencils and laying them on show cards, then airbrushing through the stencil. If wiped off and stored flat they would last forever. / Bob Gamache showed a nice example of a glass sign done with foils and paint in this forum on May 11. / There is an older building in downtown Portland that still has some lead baseboard (now we're talking lead sheet, not foil) and cast lead statue niches - they are a very cool soft grey color, with a nice dull sheen. / And of course people around here are still pulling lead plumbing pipe out of old houses, and I got to watch a guy melt lead into a cast iron plumbing pipe joint to seal the connection.
So lead work was a real deal, and now I guess it has gone the way of silent movie title cards.

[BruceJackson]

Hi Dave,

It's an interesting subject for me too. I have always simply painted straight onto the glass, so my knowledge on the methods of transferring pictures onto glass is mostly based on what I learn from signwriting...Any knowledge of other methods or overseas examples comes from reading rather than doing or original research.

I do know that typically, in Australia anyway, pictures (and old-fashioned decals) were transferred using gold size...usually a fast one. I've only ever heard of using gold size, although I'm sure you could also use a plain old clear oil-based varnish if you didn't have gold size and didn't mind it being slower. Just apply the gold size to the painting, position in onto the glass, roll or squeeze out the bubbles and let it dry before removing the paper. This is the method taught to me be the previous generation of signwriters.

When painted onto paper, they used a glue-coated paper. This way, after the painting was stuck to the glass and dried, the paper could simply be soaked and the glue would soften and the paper and glue residue could easily be wiped off.

The painted mirrors done here were all hand-painted one-offs. They may have followed a certain design, but they were all individual and varied slightly.

It does make me wonder about using other substrates and types of adhesive...I think of those English glass pictures...and the reverse prints seen in clocks. They are printed images, basically just black ink, transferred to glass and then coloured in from the back...They weren't using glue-coated paper. Didn't they get fibres in the back? I have read of them using a lacquer but I don't know what actual type of adhesive they used. (lacquer means different things to different people!)

The French ones, typically seen in Paris boulangeries, seem to mostly be painted onto canvas and the canvas is stuck onto the glass...Erik has studied them first-hand...maybe he can chime in.

[Roderick Treece]

Sorry for the misinformation. I should have waited until Larry and Dave spoke up.

As for attaching prints behind glass I normally tape them to the back of the glass and back the finished piece up with thick gator foam to keep the print pressed up against the glass.

[Anthony Bennett]

Great pictures, Great advice.

Gator foam?

[Roderick Treece]

Some people call it foam core. it's used in the framing industry as a backer/filler behind art work for mounting.

[Will Lynes]

Hey Bruce,

The place is called Doug up on bourke. On Bourke street... Waterloo.
I have a bunch more flicks... Just need to dig them up. Let me know next time your up in Sydney. Would be good to catch up.

Cheers

[pat mackle]

Lee wrote:
so for "lead foil backed" work you apply the foil to the glass, cut out the centers with a knife and weed them, then sponge a resist on and expose to acid?
What holds the foil to the glass?
Can you re-use the foil?

My answer: The glass was first brushed with asphaltum, after that coating dried, the asphaltum was rubbed heavily with a wax block(made of a mixture of melted tallow and beeswax, the ratio of which would be adjusted for the season. Harder in summer, softer in winter) After rubbing down the waxy layer, the lead foil was burnished down with a wooden block which made the foil stick down well and tight to the glass. Next, the art work was transferred to the lead foil and the design was then cut with a pen knife into the lead foil. The cut lead design was then peeled off the glass revealing the wax and tar coating beneath. I cloth moistened with solvent was then used to neatly remove the tar layer and reveal the glass to be exposed to the acid. At this point finely painted accent strokes or sponged stippling or bromish(brushed) resist was applied to the opened glass areas. The lead foil would most likely not be reused unless larger used pieces could be saved and used on smaller pieces.

Luckily, the vinyl we have today works very well in place of lead foil, but I have found some have better adhesive than others, especially when introduced to acid bathes.
I believe lead foil is still available in rolls(at least it was). It is used as a sound deadener in walls behind drywall, such as the walls of a small office in a noisy factory.

Pat

[DAVE SMITH]

Perfect explanation Pat. I can still buy the lead rolls over this way but vinyl is so much better.
Thanks for the info Bruce on the varnishes, I have had my best success with oil size and also rubbing varnish / resin gel/ and damar varnish, when I get time I have some real nice lithos to show you that were applied to the glass probably made around 1900. No yellowing !

Thanks
Dave

[Samantha Cubed]

Australian Fastsigns http://www.austfastsgns.com.au/ is provides businesses with art work, I must say! Custom work produced by the guys is something your business needs I believe http://www.austfastsgns.com.au/products.html

So if you have any questions you can ask professional signwriters, it doesn't cost anything

Cheers

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Samantha,
Nice work! Thanks for posting them for all of us to see.

I should probably note that this site is made up mainly of sign makers and sign designers. Your posts sound like you are promoting sales of your products to this audience here. That's okay, but I doubt any of your posts here will generate a sale since we do the same kinds of work. Instead, I'd suggest that you post all of your sign projects you want and simply say these are some of our recent work for all of us to enjoy. No need for the sales pitch!

Actually, I'd take this a step or two farther and suggest you add a paragraph or two with each photo explaining what went into each sign...design, materials, special techniques, restrictions, compromises, color choices, etc. We'd all gain from the experience.

Cheers,
Mike Jackson

[Doug Bernhardt]

The French ones, typically seen in Paris boulangeries, seem to mostly be painted onto canvas and the canvas is stuck onto the glass...Erik has studied them first-hand...maybe he can chime in.


Hi Bruce...a few years ago Smitty and I were visiting an antique dealer in London. His nick name was Malcom Mirrors as I recall. He had a couple old french pieces there and I did a snooping around the back. They were indeed canvas painting attached to the glass

[chris dobell]

water slide tranfers were usually done onto lytho paper cover in gum arabic or gumacia.
2-3 coats of good oil based undercoat, wet and dry sanding in between, then your pictorial work then 3-4 coats of clear.
place your pictorial behind the glass and use a normal guilding size to wet the back of the paper and the whole artwork slides off like a waterslide transfer.
the undercoat and clear coats keep it all together then back it up once done. there is a great book called face on the bar room wall with examples of this kind of work done by artists who works for the brewery or rousel studios in sydney back in the day. i have some flicks of my own work done using this technique and once i work out how to post them i will.

[BruceJackson]

Hmmmm........Mike, That's very diplomatic of you.

I must say, I had a somewhat different reaction to the possible hijacking of the topic to get some incoming links for . purposes, but perhaps i better say nothing because your response is far more mature than mine...hahaha

I agree some explanation of the pictures would make it more beneficial for readers. Better still, post a new topic altogether...and write it for the benefit of forum members, not for pagerank in google.

[Anthony Bennett]

The Soames Ales looks familiar.
Is that black on chipped glass or weathered paint?
Does anyone know of this brewery please, is it Australian or might it be a uk sign taken to Australia?
Anyone know please?

[Will Lynes]

I believe it reads on the bottom of the sign "brilliant sign company, London". And its weathered paint... but a cool effect!!

Cheers,
Will

[Anthony Bennett]

Thanks Will.

[oatis]

A related point on the lead foil topic, and a question for the keepers of techiniques arcane and forgotten:

When I was an apprentice, I had a conversation, probably ca. 1972 or so, with our beloved Meister Josef Lerch, who worked as an expert lettering and pictorial artist at Eller Outdoor. His attitude and seriousness about the craft, and his love for, and dedication to we students was exemplary. He had apprenticed in the 1930's in Germany (many interesting political stories, also) in a traditional endentured program, which required the apprentice to actually live with the journeyman and his family. Fascinating.
Anyway, he had done every kind of sign and decorating process imaginable, and in that conversation, he told me about his experience with glue chipping in general....and GLUE CHIPPING ON SITE, in particular. He described in some detail, the fairly common practice of doing fancy glue chipped signs for restaurants, taverns and even stores directly on the inside of windows, UPRIGHT, in the field. He said that he first varnished the sign area, then applied lead foil to the tacky varnish. He reverse-pounced the design for letter centers on to the back of the foil, cut those letters with a penknife and removed them. He then washed the open areas with solvent to remove the varnish (most of which had come up with the foil) and then carefully scratched those openings with pumice, to abrade the glass for chipping. Then the craziest step of all: he would mop his field-heated hide glue directly on to the surface and immediately pressed newspaper onto the backs, which would keep the glue in place. Maybe he said he soaked more glue onto it. The he packed up and went home and came in the next day to find the newsaper, with glass filled glue chips, on the floor. Clean off remaining foil & varnish, lay burnish leaf and finish as usual.

OK, team --- anybody else EVER hear of this, or done it?

[erik winkler]

Mark very interesting work description. Are there any other great stories like this hidden in your sleeve?

[Dan Seese]

Erik,
You are asking that question of THE letterhead master storyteller. His sleeves are so full of stories they're constantly spilling out, unawares.
I hope you can oblige, Mark - either here or, if so inspired, in a new thread!

[Doug Bernhardt]

Well!! That's the first I've heard of that other than I knew it was done on site in the past. A little crazier might be the acid etching also done on site. I dug out a copy of SOT from Sept. 1958 that I stumbled on some years ago and in the questions and answer section there was one regarding "flaking" glass and how to accomplish this. The reply describes etching with acid before applying "noodle" glue which was made from horse hooves. What was most interesting was quote "there is a product today that is cheaper, harmless and easy to obtain that will do the same job (name and address of manufacturer will be sent upon request etc) It is a water based paste sold in tubes and is used in screen printing being harmless to silk or hands" I also have at the shop a turn of century SOT that mentions "spangled glass" and will make an effort to dig that one up....the computer being at home. More soon.

[Lee Littlewood]

What catches my eye is:
(Mark's post) "...then carefully scratched those openings with pumice, to abrade the glass for chipping." and
(Doug's post) "The reply describes etching with acid before applying "noodle" glue which was made from horse hooves."

We have always been too cheap to put together a sandblast setup, so we've tried other ways to rough up the glass for glue-chipping. 220 grit sandpaper - nope. Acid etch - nope. Etchall cream - nope. The idea of pumice doing it is just amazing. Note that he had a very durable resist (lead foil) to scrub against - our vinyl edges broke down when trying sandpaper scratching. Still it blows me away. And of course we don't know very much about acid work, I'm sure there are lots of ways to mess with it.

One thing I read in a book from the 1940s or so: "Crafts for the Teenager" or something; right after "How to weave a keychain lanyard" was "How to do gluechipping". They took lead buckshot (same as in shotgun shells then) and tossed it around with carbide grit, so the grit was embedded in the surface of the lead. Then they masked the pattern on the glass and taped a can or box to the glass, put in some "carbide-shot" and shook it for awhile to "sandblast" the glass. After that apply glue, let dry, etc etc... I shoulda tried it, it certainly wouldn't cost much.

[Anthony Bennett]

Well!! That's the first I've heard of that other than I knew it was done on site in the past. A little crazier might be the acid etching also done on site. I dug out a copy of SOT from Sept. 1958 that I stumbled on some years ago and in the questions and answer section there was one regarding "flaking" glass and how to accomplish this. The reply describes etching with acid before applying "noodle" glue which was made from horse hooves. What was most interesting was quote "there is a product today that is cheaper, harmless and easy to obtain that will do the same job (name and address of manufacturer will be sent upon request etc) It is a water based paste sold in tubes and is used in screen printing being harmless to silk or hands" I also have at the shop a turn of century SOT that mentions "spangled glass" and will make an effort to dig that one up....the computer being at home. More soon.

Doug, are you talking about Glass Mat Paste or something else please?
I have sent you a pm with regards supplier details.
Thanks

[Lee Littlewood]

Anthony, Doug;

Please tell all about "Glass Mat Paste". What does it for you, or do to you?