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This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.
My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian
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My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Hi everyone,
I discovered that forum a few months back and it has brought me great support, so thank you all for that !
I spent 2017 training myself in glass gilding using gelatin size, and I am now ready to take jobs using gold leaves.
I am posting now because of a client's special request that I am not sure i can handle...He wants mirror looking copper color letters on his window door. I have been running tests with copper leaves and gelatin size for over a week now and i am having huge problems when taking off the excess copper. Where, with the same backup paint or backupvarnish, i have no problem with gold, it becomes very hard with copper.
My best options were strong glycerophtalique coat + one shot hardener or strong glycerophtalique paint + one shot hardener but in any cases, i ALWAYS end up scratching my letters, even using extra care.
If you have any idea on what to backup copperleaves with in order for the letters not to be scratched, it would really help me !
Thanks for your time and greetings from France,
Pierre
I discovered that forum a few months back and it has brought me great support, so thank you all for that !
I spent 2017 training myself in glass gilding using gelatin size, and I am now ready to take jobs using gold leaves.
I am posting now because of a client's special request that I am not sure i can handle...He wants mirror looking copper color letters on his window door. I have been running tests with copper leaves and gelatin size for over a week now and i am having huge problems when taking off the excess copper. Where, with the same backup paint or backupvarnish, i have no problem with gold, it becomes very hard with copper.
My best options were strong glycerophtalique coat + one shot hardener or strong glycerophtalique paint + one shot hardener but in any cases, i ALWAYS end up scratching my letters, even using extra care.
If you have any idea on what to backup copperleaves with in order for the letters not to be scratched, it would really help me !
Thanks for your time and greetings from France,
Pierre
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- Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:06 pm
Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
You should try using red gold instead of copper leaf. Copper is too thick to get a clean edge with unless you do your outlines first. Also don't use one shot to back up or for outlines, use nazdar fast dry enamel - I believe Handover in UK sells it.
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Hello Andrew,
Thank you very much for your answer. I wish I could use red gold instead, but the color seems very different and not as red/pink as copper is.
I used for my tests Nazdar back up paint from AS Handover just as you said + a little bit of hardener. It actually works if extra care taken when taking off the excess copper. For the excess copper, I use water with a little bit of "blanc de meudon" to make it more abrasive.
Thanks for the help again !
Pierre
Thank you very much for your answer. I wish I could use red gold instead, but the color seems very different and not as red/pink as copper is.
I used for my tests Nazdar back up paint from AS Handover just as you said + a little bit of hardener. It actually works if extra care taken when taking off the excess copper. For the excess copper, I use water with a little bit of "blanc de meudon" to make it more abrasive.
Thanks for the help again !
Pierre
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
I'm not sure how abrasive Blanc de Meudon is (looks like it's calcium carbonate), but you might try the Pierre d'Argent cleaner. It's gentler on the paint edges and works with a tiny amount of moisture. Be sure to clean off the slightly oily residue it leaves behind before moving on.
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
For those in North America, Pierre d'Argent goes by the name Shadazzle available through Amazon; both are one and the same.
https://www.shadazzlecleaner.com/
It's also great for cleaning gold off of glass after backing up w/ paint, and is less abrasive than whiting and ammonia or Bon Ami.
Danny
https://www.shadazzlecleaner.com/
It's also great for cleaning gold off of glass after backing up w/ paint, and is less abrasive than whiting and ammonia or Bon Ami.
Danny
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Just because a client wants something doesn't mean it is possible or practical. I'd just tell them that it is not feasible due to technical limitations. Furthermore, the water size is going to oxidize the copper and turn it brown or green over time.
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Thanks for your answers. I agree with you Andrew about telling the client about technical limitations. It willl come to this i think. I just thought at first that i had a product missing.
Thanks Danny, i will give Pierre d'argent a try !
Thanks Danny, i will give Pierre d'argent a try !
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Shadazzle has some suspect copy on the side of the product packaging, "leaves a protective coating". I haven't noticed any adhesion or cloudiness from using it, but curious to hear from others who have tried it.
In my experience with Shadazzle, it scrubs like Bon Ami and was more effective than using distilled water with cotton or a removal brush. I haven't noticed a major advantage to using it over Bon Ami in terms of abrasive qualities. Tests were done with Letterhead Sign Supply Back Up.
Shadazzle comes in a convenient cake form like the old Bon Ami cakes; but unlike Bon Ami, it's round. I don't know why there is a trend for round cakes (Shadazzle and Letterhead Sign Supply "Gilders Soap") because they seem to take up more space in the kit. Round circles seems like such an odd choice to shape a bar of soap... but I digress.
Whiting powder is a less abrasive option to Bon Ami or Shadazzle. It can also be used to clean glass, improve visability of surface gilding gilding on glass, resist for surface gilding, and be used to pounce in a pinch.
In my experience with Shadazzle, it scrubs like Bon Ami and was more effective than using distilled water with cotton or a removal brush. I haven't noticed a major advantage to using it over Bon Ami in terms of abrasive qualities. Tests were done with Letterhead Sign Supply Back Up.
Shadazzle comes in a convenient cake form like the old Bon Ami cakes; but unlike Bon Ami, it's round. I don't know why there is a trend for round cakes (Shadazzle and Letterhead Sign Supply "Gilders Soap") because they seem to take up more space in the kit. Round circles seems like such an odd choice to shape a bar of soap... but I digress.
Whiting powder is a less abrasive option to Bon Ami or Shadazzle. It can also be used to clean glass, improve visability of surface gilding gilding on glass, resist for surface gilding, and be used to pounce in a pinch.
Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
I'm coming in late on the conversation but I'll just confirm (from my experience) what you've already concluded: You can't really apply copper leaf with a water gild. Even if you increase the amount of gelatin in your size, it's just too heavy.
Andrew's suggestion to use red gold is a good one. I realize that the color doesn't have enough copper for your customer's liking, but one thing you could try is have a bit of regular gold or even 18kt gold as highlights. Color perception changes in relation whatever colors are used around it. To use a lighter gold as an accent would serve to "bring out" the copper color in the red gold.
Or perhaps you could use the regular gold as water gilded bright lines and then use the copper leaf for matte centers.
Or just suggest that you do the whole thing with the copper as a matte gild (oil size) rather than trying to do a water gild.
Just trying to think of creative solutions for you to still incorporate the copper or red gold.
Andrew's suggestion to use red gold is a good one. I realize that the color doesn't have enough copper for your customer's liking, but one thing you could try is have a bit of regular gold or even 18kt gold as highlights. Color perception changes in relation whatever colors are used around it. To use a lighter gold as an accent would serve to "bring out" the copper color in the red gold.
Or perhaps you could use the regular gold as water gilded bright lines and then use the copper leaf for matte centers.
Or just suggest that you do the whole thing with the copper as a matte gild (oil size) rather than trying to do a water gild.
Just trying to think of creative solutions for you to still incorporate the copper or red gold.
Dan
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)
http://DanSeeseStudios.com
http://www.DanSeeseStudios.com/blog/
http://www.facebook.com/DanSeeseStudios
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."
Geoffrey Chaucer (c. 1340 - 1400)
http://DanSeeseStudios.com
http://www.DanSeeseStudios.com/blog/
http://www.facebook.com/DanSeeseStudios
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Water gilded copper leaf is nearly impossible in my experience. Here is a piece I water gilded copper on about three years ago. It is a lousy gild with lots of cracks and areas which would not burnish flat because the copper leaf is so thick. To get a smooth mirror finish I had to get a leaf down without any folds, wrinkles or cracks. As for backup, I think I just used oil size with some copper mica powder in it for color. Seemed to work well and I've not had any problem with the copper scratching off. I expect the copper gild to change color as it oxidizes. Sorry for the lousy picture. Best of luck.
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
Thanks for your answers Rich and Dan, i just saw them.
Coppet is definitely too thick. Thanks Rich for the picture, it helps !
Coppet is definitely too thick. Thanks Rich for the picture, it helps !
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Re: My letters scratch away when i try copper glassgilding
For what it's worth I concur with Dan and Rich. It "may" be possible to water gild with copper but I'm sure the level of expertise required is considerable and the time much the same. I asked the late great Rick Glawson about this very subject 25 or 30 years ago and is advice was the same as above. It may be worth looking into Sarah King's solution gilding kits. I believe they do have a copper.