Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum! This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.
Hello
I have just finished these brilliant cut acid etched glass panels for a pub over here. It is one of 6 panels for the frontage of the pub, daylight will be passing through them hence the way I took the photos .I have taken some step by steps of the process for Sign Business but just wanted to share these images with you. I had seen lots of this type of work around my country especially in and around London .When Doug Bernhardt was visiting me we occasionally went up to London to take photo's of glass and carvings etc... He has been back many times updating his files as you know and has probably the biggest photographic collection of this type of work.
Alot of the original glasswork consisted of silver staining over brilliant cutting with acid etching ,which I showed in a post not long ago. I had not done any work like this which had all the treatments on one panel except for silvering or gilding which is on my list for the interior of the pub. This job was a challenge and exciting. I could not wait last night to pull off the final masks to reveal the finished piece and to see what it would be like. Once they are all fitted I will post a pic of them in there frames inside the pub.
Hope you like them
Dave
2ft6inches by 22inches
Those are sweet , Dave! I'm sure there's great satisfaction in creating those beautiful panels. Fun, yet stressful, at the same time. It really energizes the spirit when all goes right and they come out so nice!
As for me, my latest glue chipping ditty cracked the glass...darn thing. ...stressful, no satisfaction....
You just keep on as you are, I'll get to see you soon enough.
...Quite nice Dave, as usual. The piece looks totally authentic to the 1889 vintage. Will you have the actual year of your labors (and your name) etched somewhere on any of the pieces?
I like how in the third photo you are rightfully gazing proudly upon your work. You have mastered a level of artistry and skill that is far beyond my comprehension.
This looks like a very special glass sign that would be around for 100 years . I've seen some very old silver staining work around here too,all from 1880's and earlier-and your piece looks spot on.
Thats a real old fashioned technique -Its just amazing to think it can still be done in 2007-
It would be great to see a piece like that being done,- I hear your planning to run workshops in September in Virginia will this be some of the work your teaching? That would be fantastic!
Dave,
Nice!! You are constantly honeing your use on embossing and brilliant cutting to a polished razor edge. The addition of the silver staining is the iceing on the cake. You have got a tremendous talent for embellishments.
I love the smell of hf in the morning!!
Crikey Moses! When the big ones break stand out the way Larry. Thanks for all your comments on my work - very much appreciated, this is a great site to share our work and ideas. These next images I took tonight to show you how this piece looks after todays acid etching. This panel has no date so instead I put some fancy cuts in the centre to balance out the other panels. My name is etched in a third tone Billy in the corner of one of the panels,you need to look in close, thank goodness for my plotter to cut letters at 5ml. There is no reason Wayne why we could'nt do an acid panel at Gary's in September showing some of these toned effects. Hope to see you there mate.
I will put some details about that workshop here soon to give people extra time to plan things.
silverstaining - would love to have silvered them
acid etched name in corner
Finished this one tonight, 4 to go now
There will be a step by step in the Sign B mag hopefully this year.
Like I said I will put some more pics up when they are fitted next week
Thanks for now
Dave.
Last edited by DAVE SMITH on Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pat .The smell in the morning of HF is like bad eggs ,I must get some of the same acid as yours, sounds like your pouring out perfum there. I can't stick the smell, I usually etch outside.
Even then I wear a mask and goggles. Thanks for your help on Skype back along with the misting acid I finally managed to get it to work on some building scenes.
Dave
Robare
The glass is 1/4''plate ,I did kilnfire them to 560 degrees and held them at that temprature there for 10 minutes. I then let them cool to room temprature before opening the kiln. I have opened to early and cracked test pieces before ,so you got to just forget them and let the kiln do it's thing. I am pleased the way they came out. I made 5 test stripes to try out a lower strength acid to save using the expensive 60% strength which I use for mixing the white acid. Worked well for increasing times for all 4 tones of acid... Ron. The time to make one piece was as follows . All the Edge Cutting and round puntie cuts including double polishing with different grades of polish took 16 hours, this is labour intensive this part , an experienced cutter like my friend Stuart Norton would do this part in around 8 hours including polishing. I need more practice to gain speed! comes with experience. Silver staining was only about two hours to prepare and then the kiln was fired and that went for 14 hours cycle. walk away and forget it then... 8 hours then to prepare and cut all the acid stensils, half of this was done on computer and laid in, acid etching total with all tones was 3 hours. design time and computer time was about 1 day but split this between 6 panels say 2 hours each piece
Total time 31 hours, seems alot but worth the time and effort. Once this lot are fitted I have the main big panels to do which join to these on the lower windows. Lots more time on those panels too.
Thanks for the interest.
Dave
Dave,
Those panels are looking sweeter everytime I check in. I just finished wheel cutting a polished starburst into a beveled panel to replace an antique one that was broken by a film crew. The original bevel was quite old, it still had a reddish residue around the edges from the iron oxide polishing roughe that the old beveling companies used before cerium oxide was introduced, pretty cool.
I love the smell of hf in the morning was a take off from the film Apocalypse Now, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" which assaults your nose as well.
Polishing the cuts gets faster as you learn to get the perfect mix of cerium to water as well as dressing the polishing wheels to match the stone. Also work the polish so that it rides and gathers above the cut, cycling down around the cut and back up.
The action of the wheel will move it in the direction of rotation. I control the flow of the cerium slurry by angling the glass slightly. This way I can polish at longer intervals before charging the wood wheel with more cerium.
About the silver stain. It would be cool to also obtain the amber red stain and airbrush a blend with the two colors, resulting in a amber to amber red shaded letter.
About your kiln and those dreadfull last hours of waiting for it to reach room temperature before opening it in fear of breaking your glass. I keep my old terrycloth bath sheet towels next to my kilns. Once the kiln gets down to 350-300 degrees F, I open the kiln and cover the glass and mould sealing it with a full towel. A single towel for 1/4", and two layers of towels for 1/2" or thicker.
Both the kiln and glass can cool faster this way, its a must for production jobs. I have scored and cut glass after this towel proceedure and found it to cut perfectly, which indicates that using the towels to speed the cooling process does not effect the annealing time of the glass.
That would be worth ago Pat ,thanks for the tip again! I have a bent oval piece to make inside the pub at some stage which is acid etched and cut. Some of the line work will be black outlines. I was wondering if there were any techniques that anyone knows about for making the artwork and transfering it to glass somehow?(black outlines)
I thought about shaped printing , curved squeeges and floppy meshed screens but I need it more exact. Any ideas please? Possibly water decal process somehow.
As regards the silver stain ,did I ever show you the faded letter S I made as a test ? I think I still have a picture I posted it mot long ago on the site, this was only combining yellow and amber stain to give me the deep gold colour. nice effect worked well.
Dave,
If you are wheel cutting onto flat glass and then bending it, this may work for you.
First cut and polish your wheeled areas. Then screen print your black linework while the glass is flat, with a low fire vitrious black enamel screen ink.
Then place your glass in the kiln and slump in the oval, baking in the black lines as well.
You should be able to slump the glass without changing or losing your acid tones.
I've got more ideas if this won't do, but they are more involved.
Thats a great idea Pat. that will work well. I will do some testing times first. Infact the artwork is very detailed so I could just lay leaf over the back after slumping.
I start that in a few weeks time. would still be interested in your other ideas when you get time here.
Thanks Pat.
Dave
Just come back from meeting Doug B in London. Had a great few days as usual with Doug walking around different pubs and taking photos of glass and Mill work also enjoying a pint or two at the same time.(Important part) I placed these photos on this old post due to the techniques of the glass inside this pub (The Princess Louise),the acid work inside was completed a few months ago by a London Company all the cutting was done by James Witchell in Gloucester uk. The panels with gold leaf on were made 100 years ago by Morris and Sons but all the rest 3 toned acid and cutting were made recently over 100 panels around the bar area were commisioned by the National Trust. The carvings and snug areas were all put back with the glass to its original look when it opened 100years ago
Anyway please enjoy the new photos of the bar which I have uploaded for you.
Thanks
Dave
mixing the talow
acid room
Dave and Tony the acid etchers who made all the glass panels
Easy Erik, easy...the first thing a brilliant cutter needs to learn is to take things easy.
Yeah, who in this craft wouldn't love to possess the skills to create astonishingly glorious panels like those! Unfortunately, the demands of making a living keep a lot of us from the time, focus, and dedication required to develop these skills. Not to mention the equipment and facility required. I would love to learn it someday...someday. But for now, I am indeed grateful for the skills I have learned and am able to practice on a regular basis. I still haven't lost the passion for glass art and it's been 20+ years now. I'd love to see what Pat Mackle could create if the almighty buck wasn't in his way!
But that Smitty! I seen him do some things!
My advice, get the brilliant cutting equipment and some glass... tomorrow.
You best get your mind set on what needs to be done.
Erik. Larry is right one step at a time mate. I have decorative glass ideas I would love to have time to make but everyday my workload is planned out the kids need feeding and bills need to be paid.
Now if your rich its another matter - you have all the time in the world!
Keep up the enthusiasm Erik you will get there, I can tell your hungry for the learning curve ahead of you as we all are.
Meamwhile check these panels out....
Haha you both made the right point.
Since i am new in the scene i am still trying to make 'simple' goldleaf glass signs.
But because it is so ingredible bussy at the firm i can't even experiment with that!!!
These Whiskey panels are even more beautifull than the rest in my opinion.
They really show me the antiquity of the work.
Gives me a good feeling of escaping the bussy way of live outside the pub.
Dave,
This stuff takes my breath away. I may never be able to do this type of work but it inspires me, expands my horizons and drives me forward in what I do. Thank you, as always, for posting these pictures. It's stuff we would never see without your excellent photos and willingness to share them with us.
As beautiful as the recent restorations are, I think my favorites are the cut, toned and gilded pieces done my Morris & Son. Unsurpassed beauty and skill.
The leaded piece you've included - there is no cutting or etching in that, is there? Is it all done with transparent paints fired into the glass or something? That's a different nuance altogether and really beautiful.
The last 3 whiskey panels you posted look very much like a panel included in Arnold Swartzman's book "DESIGNAGE". On page 73 there is a glass sign with "Superior Old Irish & Scotch Whiskies" which he identifies as "Victorian gilded and etched mirror, Balmoral Castle pulbic house. London, 1870's."
Yes, this is truly very inspiring and creates an empty space in me that needs to be filled. I'd like to do nothing but fill my days with learning all of this. But like Dave says, bills, kids etc.. Thanks for posting these pics, keeps me going. I sure wish some of you guys lived nearby, but then I could become a pest!
Next year Jerry I will be having workshops in my home town with organised trips to London to see all these pubs and more.
I do not have costs as yet but will be definatley having classes here on all these techniques .
Thanks to Doug and his perserverence for finding old pubs to photograph .I thought it would be a good way to teach along with sharing part of my countrys history for Pub Glass and Carvings.
Dan they are some of my favourites also Morris & Son. and yes these panels at the Les Trois Garcons do look similar to the panels at the other London Pub you mentioned ,probably the same artist. The leaded panels at the Princess Louise have no cutting or etching but they do have the silverstained firing like you see at the beginning of this post with the glass panels I made. It always looks better silvered with this type of work I think.
Doug is probably walking in the door now so he may come in and tell us what else he seen on the rest of his trip. The terrible thing about our pubs is that they are slowly being demolished due to lack of care.
In some places the National Trust are stepping in but check this list out and see for your selves whats happening here. To think most of these pubs at one time were such elaborate gin palaces. this is a short list .. http://www.lalamy.demon.co.uk/publist.htm
See you
Dave
Yup....made it back in the door a couple days ago. It's been trying to get my clock back on Canadian time since. Dave was mentioning some of these places and the demolition of so many. An example is the Greyhound in Sydenham. I had it on my short list to see as it had a few original glass pieces still there. Just last fall it met that same fate. It was in a rough area of town and regardless of the heritage (they have so much) it wasn't or couldn't be run at a profit. The UK has several huge corp's that own 8 and 10 thousand pubs with pretty harsh restrictions on the lesse's or tenants. If a pub can't be run at a profit they have the land value to satisfy the profit margins. CAMARA is working to change this and I'll be getting a membership myself shortly. I was in a number of places that are Grade 1 listed (the highest) which means no reno's/refurbishing can happen at all. In fact in the early 60's the Princess Louise (the glass pieces above) was almost demolished to make room for the offices of the brewery that owned it. Those are the single finest mirrors I have seen over the years and although the pub has done an enormous re-fit, you can see the new work suffers from the same next week supply mentality that is so prevalent over here. When you walk on all the new tiled floors you can see they aren't lais properly and will have to be redone in a few years. The new millwork although soundly made is just not up to the quality of the old stuff. You know.....the carvings aren't as good and don't fill the spaces as well. I could go on and on about all this but would be typing for the week or so. One place I need to mention is the Lord Clyde. It's been in the same family for about 50 or 60 years. It has the best preserved glass piece by the same artist who did the Trois Garcons...the photos above with all the Victorianna, monkeys and stuff.
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads