Frog Juice over Gold

[DAVE SMITH]

Could someone help me with this please. Has anyone ever used Spray Frog Juice over gilded letters for external use? I have just gilded some wooden letters for a client and sprayed one of the letters with Frog Juice which came out great ,finger prints will be all over these letters as they are positioned at ground level. Frog Juice keeps the letters looking natural gold rather than the usual varnish's that dulls goldleaf. But does it last?
Thanks
Dave

[Mark Summers]

I personally wouldn't trust Frogjuice over gold as I have seen it fail.
What I do think would work is Chromatic Ticote #1010 gloss.
On a test piece in my backyard has held on copper leaf, I'm thinking
gold would be just fine too. It is a waterbased clear acrylic that sticks to
most everything. My backyard test piece is at 9000 ft. direct southern exposure.
Frogjuice is only good for interior gold work in my opinion.
I think there are some other water based acrylics that work well too. I looked
at Letterhead Sign Supply but didn't find what I was looking for.

Mark

[Doug Bernhardt]

Davey, ordinarily I'd just give you a call and am surprised you've never needed to try this. I recall Rick Glawson using frog juice over gold leaf as well as copper. That it leaves a brighter gold than other clears surprises me also. By the way........great stuff from the Chemists shop. Saved a copy of them all. Such a treat to see the carving WITHOUT the glass in front. Really gives you an idea of all the work involved. The usual pressed and mounted letters under glass would also be something to see stripped right down.

[Tony Segale]

Well, Englishman...

I haven't had success with any clear on gold leaf. And, I've cleared quite a few.
Seems every time, the clear coat fails, cracks, and peels and take the gold off with it.
One job, individual letters, I had to take down and regild within a year.
I have decided a few years ago never to clear gold leaf agian, and all is looking well.
I clear coat copper leaf, and no peeling problems. I've used frog juice, peels the quickest.
The best success is with Chromatic Clear Overcoat varnish.

Currently, I am hand lettering, gilding and outlining 21 steel directory type signs for the local upscale hotel,
and I will not be clear coating any of the gold. All signs will be outdoors at various heights.

I see the worst in clear coats.

[DAVE SMITH]

Thanks for the advice lads.
Dave

[Roderick Treece]

Sorry i did mension this before but I sell my own gold leaf clear call BULL FROG JUICE. The only way you can get some is to come to my place and squeeze it out of my BULL FROG. His name is Tad.

Ribbit

[Kent Smith]

Frog Juice is a single component acrylic without internal UV inhibitors so it is only good outdoors for a year or two max. The waterbourne Ti-cote Mark refers to has a UV inhibitor in the acrylic resin that has a 7 to 10 year life and also packaged as UV Clear. In addition to Clear Overcoat, I have had the best success with two-component urehtane-acrylic clears with UV (Sikkens, Matthews, Dupont et al), which have a 15 plus year life. I wish 1Shot would still make the Clear Overcoat which was a silicone modified alkyd formulated after the old Dupont RK-190 which we used in the 50's and 60's. Not only did it have UV capability, the silicone gave it resistance to water and detergents, making it durable and suitable for glass work as well. Its lower tech application made it much more suitable for brushing over gold and enamels.

[DAVE SMITH]

Thanks Kent very helpful. Roderick send that Frog over in the post.
Dave

[David Slade]

I was wondering how they coat gilding on fire trucks?... Maybe that would be of some help to Dave as well as my own curiosity.
David Slade

[erik winkler]

Maybe ask Pierre Tardif.
He recently did one... and made an amazing job!
http://www.lettervile.com/ubb/ultimateb ... /4140.html

As far this newby read about the subject the best one could use is a two component polyurethane clearcoating.
It is very hard and does not yellow due to UV light.
But maybe Pierre could give some light into what he used.

[Miles Cullinane]

I am wondering what Kent would have to say about the OneShot speed dry UV Acrylic Clear 4005 as I have tried it over gold yet.

[Scarlett Rickard]

I have used the UV Clear several times over gold, and so far so good - I used it to clear a steel sign (see attached - hopefully my attachments have worked!) and the gold is still really bright and hasn't lost any of its shimmer under the clear.

I have used UV clear on steel signs about seven years ago which are still looking really good, but that was just over One Shot and gloss enamel, not gilding. However they are in a very sunny place and are looking very strong and don't appear to be cracking or anything.

Also attached is a tiny sign "Iffin" which was gilded on wood about five years ago with no clear at all, in a very weather-beaten place -this pic was taken a few months ago, so no clear appears to work well too!

[Kent Smith]

The 1Shot UV clear is in the acrylic family I mentioned before with UV inhibitors added. These UV acrylics are formulated in both solvent and water. Using the old good, better, best concepts I would rate the clears in this order: plain acrylics and phenolic resins as good; UV acrylics and silicone modified alkyd as better; and two-components as best. Having said that, even with UV inhibitors added, clears are always more suseptable in their family to earlier breakdown than pigmented finishes.

Most firetrucks are cleared with the two-component products.

[Pierre Tardif]

Thanks Erik for your e-mail about this topic, very interesting.

I used a spar varnish or marine varnish on the fire trucks I did. It add a darker shade to the gold though, but it was done this way many years ago. I have talked to a few old signpainters that did firetrucks in the past and this what they used. There's also a old gilders in Quebec that use to do a lot of statues for churches and he always use a spar varnish. I can't say about durabilty as those machine are now kept in the garage most of the time. I read that Alan Johnson use One Shot tinting clear with a few drops of One Shot hardener for his gilding on vehicles and I tried it recently, works fine.

Minwax makes a great one part urethane varnish available in most hardware store.

My 2 cents...

[Kent Smith]

Just to add that Spar, Marine and simple alkyds land in the "good" category as far as durability of the resin. Note that cooked resin spars have not been available since the late 50"s.

[Ray Smith]

I don't do a whole lot of gilding but when I do I use a commercial grade spar varnish.As Pierre noted,it does darken the gold a bit and I find that it takes several days to properly set up but once set is very durable.
The 1-Shot UV clear as I understand it was not designed to use over paint but rather ink on vinyl.In my experience with it,I noticed it has extremely poor solvent resistance.Something as mild as wax and grease remover will soften it rapidly.
I have done a couple of fire trucks in gold and then had urethane clear sprayed over them the following day with good results.A couple that I have found that work well are PPG 2021 and 2042 clear as well as the DuPont 3000 series clears.The technique I recommend is spraying on two very light tack coats;waiting approximately 10-15 minutes between them,and then spraying a full wet coat.This will give a great gloss as well as protecting the gild.Two caveats:Do NOT hurry the tack coats and make them as light as possible.Do NOT use a reducer that will penetrate readily as this will cause the 1-Shot AND the gild to pucker.
Just my twopence.

[Ron Percell]

Frog Juice has held up for us 7 years when 3 coats are applied by brush with out thinning.
R.Glawson Had a panel facing upright on top of his van that boasted 10 years of performance and counting.

If your thinning frog juice you'll find the product tend to buckle up or crack apart.

Wait for your gold size to fully close after gilding. Apply straight frog juice trying to limit the amount of strokes to no more than 1-2, then allow to cure 8-12 hours and repeat the process until you've 3 coats.

For many years, 2 coats were thought to be adaquate, but I've seen the best results and durability using 3 coats.

We use Frog Juice in the spray can when quick gilding boats, vehicles or letters.

To begin I mask off the area to be gilded, and then right after gilding I spray/fog on a very light coat(almost dusty, dont touch dust).
then I repeat this light dusting 3 times about every 5-10 minutes. This builds up a protective coat of dust that doesnt attack/alligator the gild. Now the final coat I apply is heavy enought to wet and bring the clear back out of the dusty clear, then I remove the mask right away so that any egdes might level out.

Good Luck