Posted by Tony Segale on August 05, 2003NOTE FROM SITE MAN
This is a fairly long thread that seems to have three "date threads" for lack of a better definition. I will "up post" them by the apparent "date threads. 8-5-03, 8-7-03, and 8-8-03. Hope this doesn't cause too much confusion.
Tony SegaleTook a gilding class in the studio of Frances Binnington located in San Francisco the weekend of July 12 and 13.
The class focused on the centuries old techniques of reverse gilding and painting on glass referred to as verre e'glomise'. The piece you will see (if I attach the pic correctly) was created by applying the silver and 23K gold leaves with cold water size while the glass is in a horizontal postion. Watching the old world techinques of using the gilder's tip was worth the class in itself. After the leaf has dried to it's mirrored finish (single gild), then the metal is etched or distressed away in the design you created, followed by a matte gilded lemon gold border using an acrylic size, asphaltum, news clipping decopauge and japan colors and tinted shellac.
The process was quite interesting, and can be a very expressive art form. No worries about the critical finishes we are used to in the lettering side of our business. As Frances told me, "You need to go through a de-analization process."
If you give the large jpg a chance to load, and if you can bear through the sight of the ugly mug, over my left ear is a piece of broken glass, reassembled and put back together in a framed case that was created in Europe over 300 years ago (kind of reminded me of how some pieces were saved for our viewing pleasure in Wilmington, CA).
Enjoy at these links....
http://www.softcom.net/users/segalesigns/gildartist.jpg
Tony Segalei'm quitting now and going back to letterin'
Robert BeverlyI can't figure out these darn things, techno wiz, I'm not
Tony
Great to see someone playing with this process and willing to share it!
Can you give a step by step of materials used after the gold has been applied to create the background area....ie...varnish to attach the newspaper...etc.
I would appreciate it!
Mike Jackson
Robert BeverlyRobert,
It is amazing what is already on the Internet on almost any subject. Just type in www.google.com and do a search. In just a few clicks, I found numerous sites, including classes on the technique. Always worth nosing around if interested in any process, history, material, or technique.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... se&spell=1
Mike
Mike JacksonMike
Your right...and I have googled this puter to death...and have bought many books on this topic in particular.
As a matter of fact, a bunch of us tried something very new at the meet back in June that many said was a breakthrough in this process...now...we are just seeing if it holds to be something worth sharing.
So...Tony...I am still curious about the process that Francis used....with my main interest in the diferent adhesives to see if there is a different direction she may have taken as opposed to what methods that I am currently aware of!
Robert BeverlyRobert,
I think I am missing something here...
"Verre Eglomise is essentially gilding applied to the underside of glass". (www.societyofgilders.org/GildingInfo/ Eglomise/eglomise.html)
Your questions about adhesives lead me to think you are asking about the process of sticking a printed piece of orinted paper or similar product to the glass from the back side. Maybe my confusion is whether including reverse decoupage is also considered part of what people call Verre Eglomise.
I don't know the answer to my confusion. Maybe someone can straighten me out.
Mike
Mike
I guess I throw in all together in the same pot.
I interpret the process as etching from the back...yes...but he did apply other materials behind it which you call reverse decoupage...I just throw it all in the same boat and say...
what adhesives or varnishes were used to affix the images (and I guess in this case was paper) to the back so the image is preserved as well as effective.
Do you normally use frog to attach a print in reverse to glass?...just curious what he used.
I hope I clarified it a bit
Tony Segale
Ron PercellYou're right , Mike. And the second site that pops up is Frances Binnington's site, www.gilding.net, who I took the class from...
Danny BaronianCool glass piece Tony. It'll be great in your showroom, I look forward to your next one.
Thanks for posting it up here and sharing with all of us.
Binnington's site was a nice break and inspiring.
Keep up the great work, and of course, the Fine Art's
Ron
Tony SegaleTony, did you feel the $ 380 plus class worthwile, and do you plan on posting a step by step?
Other than the Conclaves, have you, or anyone else attended one of Rick's class?
My wife and I attended a weekend class several years ago. It was like a Conclave with one project and only six people. Very nice.
Danny
Roderick TreeceThanks to all responses, have to apologize, been rather swamped here with new calls, on going jobs and now three nights of soccer tryouts (why did I come out of coaching retirement for one year...oh yeah its my kid)
anyway, give me a day or two and I'll list all the steps and materials used...
Thanks again
Robert BeverlyIt's nice to see such a big responce about Frances Benington and verre e'glomise.
I took a course from her about 15 years ago when she was in New York city.She's a very wonderful person and it's worth the money just to get to spend time with her.I also got to meet Geovanni Bucci who is a wonderful guilder and famous in his own mind.I learned alot about gesso and water guilding on frames and also about verre e'glomise.I was the only person in the class that knew about water guilding glass(for signs) and did some samples of my own while in the class.
After touring the mueseums and seeing alot of examples of verre eglomise and trying to incorporate it into my work I found it to be not very attractive.Maybe one of you will have better luck with it.
Basicly after waterguilding your gold and burnishing it you etch or scrach off the gold to create art work then backpaint in were you took off the gold.Almost always it was painted in black.The best thing I found was to oil guild back into the scrached off areas and guild with a brighter gold.
I have always found it to be very flat looking and I am hoping to see somebody do it justice.Good luck with it and I will be looking forward to seeing somthing good come from this.
Roderick
RoderickTony
I for one would be very appreciative!!!!!!!!!
I have thought about taking her course... Sound like a good move?
Thanks again! I look forward to it!
Mike JacksonAfter reading all the "new" postings that i thought were about Verre eglomise i am left wondering. I thought this was a place where you could share ideas and tecniques you've heard about or discovered?Most of the classes and semenars I've attended were about tecniques that have been around for EVER.If someone has the incentive to teach a class about it more power to them but once it's out there it's there for the sharing and I would hope that it would be shared by all.
Frances Benington was teaching water guilding on frames when I took her class 15 years ago.
She didn't have much info about Verre e'glomise.I went to the modern art mueseum with her to look at 50 to 300 year old examples of guilding and Verre e'glomise.
At that point I wasn't very impressed by what I had seen so over the next 15 years I've tried deferent things useing this tecnique.I am more than happy to share them with anybody anytime.
There is a very old decorative painting school in New York city "The Elizabeth O'neill School"
A lady by the name of Joann Day went there for years to learn the secrets of Faux finishing.She left and opened the "Day Studio"in San Francisco"about 20 years ago.With out her I believe that Faux finishing would never be as big as it is now.
There was a guy in Wilmington California that would share everything with anybody that was excided about learning. No holds bared!
I'm sorry to rant so much but I think it's very important for this comunity to be totally open about anything that is out there.If you teach a course and you get people interested the information will spread.Thats the point.I have heard from alot of people tell me how amazing it is that we can be so open with ideas and I hope that continues.
I would love share anything I know about Verre 'eglomise or anything ,just ask
Roderick.
Some Holds Barred
Danny BaronianHi Roderick,
I'll just throw this in for thought....since you mentioned it.
The big guy in Wilmington didn't tell us "everything". He was in the business of selling products and some of the information held value--and not disclosed. Big Daddy didn't give us his Angel Gild formula, nor a long list of suppiers he bought from. He would be glad to tell you how to do the beer size technique or just about any other technique, but some information that affected his income was witheld. It is a fine line, but I don't feel that every single bit of hard earned knowledge has to be shared with the masses.
I'll give you a similar example....
Let's say I found a GREAT source for finding all the best old sign books (not that I have found the source). I am not going to go on line and tell the rest of the world...only to have everyone else compete against me in my quest to fill voids in my collection. Conversely, it would not be a problem for me to notify another sign maker of the location of a tough book if I already owned it. I would be sharing, but not everything.
All things considered, "The Letterheads Spirit" is not a clearly defined, nor enforceable, concept. Each person defines their level of sharing, and not all persons can be expected to share equally. No one should to be judged against another's standards.
Tony Segale may have spent $400 for a seminar, and I am sure he would be happy to help someone with a few questions, but I can't see how anyone should expect him to do a step-by-step project to show the world everything they just learned. Someone taking a David Butler Photoshop/Design course can probably help others from time to time, but doing an online step-by-step of what he just learned seems a bit too much to ask (not to mention how that might affect David).
This topic is multi-faceted. Some of what might seem right or wrong may depend on who's shoes are being filled.
Mike Jackson
Some Holds Barred
Mike JacksonWell, here's another thought: I don't believe the intent of this board is to post online step by steps. There are others that do.
David Butlers PhotoShop class was mentioned. To post an online step by step of his course would not only take away from lessons he's worked to present, it's unethical. But then again maybe most of us older Letterheads just don't get it!
Regarding Rick, he wasn't always that willing to help... unless you first made an effort.
After attending the Conclave for years, and watching as Rick and others demonstrated angle gilding, I was ready to gild my project last year. After asking Rick's help, he just smiled and said "you've been here enough, do it yourself", turned and walked away.
But he was right, and it turned out fine.
Danny
Some Holds Barred
RoderickTo follow up with another example:
Robare Novou recently printed a booklet/treatise on the history and formulas related to the Angel Gild process. I paid $50 for his book (copyrighted). Now that I have it, should I type page 28 out for everyone here? The information is here in my hands but should I now tell everyone? I didn't have the information until I paid my $50, but now that I have it, does the world of Letterheads have a right to it for free?
Mike Jackson
Spme Holds Barred
Thanks for the response.
My father "Don Treece" shared any information he had with anybody.Thats the way I learned and everybody else around him.
All I am trying to say is if your selling information (a seminar) you got from somone else to sell to someone else that information can be shared freely if YOU see fit.
In the case of Frances Benington,she didn't discover it.
Joanne Day didn't discover faux finishing.
But they package it to sell to others who buy it,use it and in turn the procees grows .
This whole decustion got started with a posting and a photo of a rather crude sample .I'll I'm trying to do is share the discoveries about that process that I've learned, not ask for a step by step.
Heres an example; 20 years ago I take a faux finish class at the Day Studio.20 years later I'm standing in line at Home Depot behind some lady who has enough stuff to dig her self into a hugh sponge hole.
Should I
1) Keep my mouth shut.
2) Tell her how big a hole she's dug
3) Tell her for a share of the class fee (say 500.00) I'll help her.
4) Gladly help her with a few tips so it makes her project a little easier.
When I pick #4 she's happy, I'm happy and she's still going to struggle cause it's totally new to her. But at least I've help share a little info that makes it better.
Roderick
Mike Jackson
Some Holds Barred
Tony SegaleI think everyone here would pick #4, based on the scenario you defined.
Mike Jackson
Danny W. BaronianGot some time this morning to jot a few words in regards to the great response via my post on verre e'glomise'. I'll try to answer as best I can.
While the spirit of the Letterheads is to help us all with the improvements of our craft, it's very hard to divulge what we each have learned after taking a paid workshop. For instance, if after I took the David Butler workshop in Denver, and then told us all how to go about it, step by step, right out of the book David and Susie took their time to create for us, and put the past 15 plus years of experiences into, wouldn't be very ethical.
Working closely together at a meet, however, is really cool.
By the same token, for me to tell all how I created my glass piece in Frances Binnington's class, wouldn't be respectful to her, either. Yet, I have the good news that, because during her class I talked up the Letterheads so much, she wants to attend one of our meets!
Danny, you asked if I thought the price of the class was worth it? Yes. I haven't taken one class, from the late Mike Stevens workshop, to David Butler's workshop, that I haven't come away with new knowledge and/or techniques. And the same goes for every Letterhead meet I've attended. Some cost only the price of a lunch, while others were in the three digit range, and not one have I come away without some new experiences. I find if I keep realizing I don't know all there is to know, I keeping learning more each time.
I'll never forget the Harvest of Walls in Vinton, Iowa the labor weekend in 2000. My dad asked what I was doing that Labor Day, and I told him I'm flying to Iowa to help paint some murals. First question he asked was, "how much are they paying you to go there?" It's questions like that that makes me wonder how my father became a school teacher. So, I had to let him know how much the plane ticket and entry fee would equal to all the experiences I would reap.
In his usual fine quality, he didn't understand, until I showed him the pictures and told all the wonderful stories. I still don't think he understands.
Anyway, I heard about Frances Binnington's workshop through the organization I joined, after a referral from another mural painter in Iowa, the Society of Gilders. I encourage all to check out this society and their website at www.societyofgilders.org or Frances' website at www.gilding.net
hope this helps........
Tony SegaleWell said Tony, I agree wholeheartedly! It's one thing to attend a Letterhead meet and freely share information gained with others, but a completely different matter to pay for a course and post that information.
Same goes for those that copy a clip art collection, passes them out to others, and uses the excuse that the collection was too expensive.
You took a class from Mike Steven's, where was that? That's one I would have loved to have taken!
Danny
Tony SegaleFebruary 1989, to be exact, Danny.
Seems after I bought this book called "Mastering Layout and Design by Mike Stevens", I ended up on a mailing list and got a notice about a workshop in Long Beach,CA. Jon Harl was hosting his second Stevens workshop. I called, he said I was number 13, we're only taking 12. Called me back the next day, there's one opening , we need to know right away. So, I asked my former meat market boss for the time off, gave him a two month notice of leave of employment and signed up. I was a pauper among nobles. Lane Walker was there for his THIRD Stevens workshop. He felt his designs still weren't there yet (he might still tell you that today, that's why he's one of the best!)
We met the night before so Mike could view our portfolio. That was the knee knocker for me. All Mike had to do was open the front cover and look me in the eye and ask "Can you take criticism".
You didn't have to tell me that, I know my work was n, that's what I was there for, and that's as they say "history'. I can't wait to bring that portfolio to another meet someday as if it was an updated book to see the cringing in the viewers eyes!
Anyway, thanks for the photo sizing advice, if I link this correctly, I'm including a photo of those who were in attendance in 1989, like:
Bob Iverson
Lane Walker
ME
Jan Takahashi
Joe Jarreau (his 2nd also, and shared shop
with Big Jon)
Mike Stevens
(on Mike's left, can't remember, HELP JON)
standing, right to left:
Carl Markham
Jerry Hudson (I think)
Jon Harl
Lyle Young
and another (I can't remember)
Ron PercellHey, maybe we can talk Jon Harl and Lane Walker into holding a design and layout workshop. They should be teaching their stuff. I think their work speaks well enough for that! Com'on boys....
Mike JacksonI have to agree with you Danny, that would have to be a "Snake Oil" thing to do, leaves a bad taste in your mouth for a long time.
Here's a link to the BBB that lays out the law.
http://www.bbb.org/library/pastip.asp
what it neglects to mention is the extensive IRS audit that then occurs, it's amazing to see what the data mining software they have can pull up.
Mike Stevens has been gone for a while, but I know Tony took the class, maybe he'll be able to pass some of it along at a meet.
For a while, Mike Stevens worked with John Cox in Kentucky and they headquartered a few of the Stevens seminars. John worked with Mike enough to eventually be able to teach basically the same class. Gary Anderson teaches design classes off and on, and some of Mike Stevens' design theories are included in his classes.
Mike Stevens was able to leave a solid piece of information for the rest of us in his book. It wouldn't be quite the same as an interactive seminar, but the information is still there.
Mike Jackson
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads