Posted by Danny Baronian on February 18, 2004
D. BernhardtI'm sure this has never happened to anyone else. This morning I went to check on the progress of a chipped piece I've been working for a customer. It was ready to be cleaned and gilded. Nice looking chip. Went to put it down, slipped from my hand and fell 6" onto the bench top onto the glass nipper. The one piece glass is now 6. Start all over. Morale: hold the glass tightly, work over a padded surface, and don't leave steel tools lying around.
Regarding clear finishes forget the lumberyard for finishes, though many go there not knowing of other sources. The best source is the auto body supply.
In my quest for the perfect clear finish, I ended up at the marine supply. Man of War, if I remember correctly was the number one finish used by boat makers, my theory being that finishes on boats would have to be the best, most durable available. The clear had a life span at best of a year and a half. Then you sand the whole thing and re-coat. Every year and a half.
I started out as a furniture maker. Yes, the furniture was inside, but the offices I supplied had enough sun to beat the best finish. My primary finish ended up being a two part automotive lacquer which had to be sprayed on in a booth. Got tired of that real fast.
After years of use I discovered - there is no good , long lasting clear. Period. The only way to convince people is to do what Mike did with the sample piece. The one thing that comes close is water clear surfboard resin, same material used on boats. Very tough and durable and holds up well outdoors for a long time, but I would imagine it wouldn't be that great to apply to a sign. It also has a short pot life. As a side note, this is exactly the same material being sold for 'doming' letters, just costs much less.
Doug, when you get back on your puter, jump in here any time. The carved wood signs is by this Canadian are the best I've seen anywhere. I believe he uses the finish Mike mentioned.
Doug, have you had to maintain the ones you've made, and what is the longest you've had one up? If you can post a picture of of one, do it or send it to Mike or I and we'll post it here. If not let me know, I have some floating around somewhere.
Danny
Lee LittlewoodHi Dan and thanx for the compliments...I'm truely blushing. Of course I started reading from below and actually posted a response to Jon Harl about this and what I do. What might be added to what I said is "so far" this has been most satisfactory for me and have tried alot of different methods over the years! The glass scares I'll stay away from as all the horror stories could be repeated by me! ;=)
Kent Smith - Clear finishesThe way my master Roy Darby explained it, the problem with clear finishes is that they are clear. He said to imagine a film of finish sitting on top of wood. The sun will bounce off the outer surface of an opaque finish, degrading the surface layer but not affecting the rest of the film. (Then the outer surface will slowly break down, exposing new finish - this is called "chalking" and is a good thing except that the chalked color tends to run down the wall if it rains.) But if the film is clear, the light will travel through the film, breaking down the film everywhere, not just on the surface. But wait, it gets worse - if the clear is over a reflective surface like gold leaf, now the light goes through the film, reflects off the gold, and goes back out, giving almost twice as much breakdown.
The flip side is that a reflective coating will protect the clear film from sunlight, which is why gilding on statues and carved letters can last so well - the size isn't exposed to light until the gold wears away.
The sunlight stuff is only one part of the total problem - the film has to stick well, and expand and contract with the wood, and resist water, and so on. There's no way to get everything right, so paint technologists get a bit goofy from being beat up all the time - look at Kent.
Basically, clear coats have a hard row to hoe.
Joe House - Clear finishesLee, I think I resemble that, no offense taken. Many of the newer clear technologies use UV inhibitors which work much the same way as the pigments do. Most are formulated from an acrylic resin which means you will find them in commercial grade (sold to professionals only) waterborne clears and two component clears as they will not fomulate in traditional "oil based" clears. The inhibitors are either added to the "top" resin or are part of it and they basically bend the light so that the UV will not attack the base resin. A high gloss clear with a modified resin which has an elongated heptagonal cell structure will both bend the UV and the gloss will reflect some without needing an additional additive. The difference bewteen the two is that the first is UV resistant and the latter is UV protective. None the less, some of the UV is not bent away but still attacks the base resin and it breaks down, however more slowly than without inhibition. Now, is that clear?
As a side note, I have used some of the clear resins over Edge prints to give them a 3 dimensional effect. The result is a faster fade of the print because the resin acts like a light gathering lense, intensifying the UV concentrated on the print.
Has anyone tried the (relatively) new High Performance Clear by Matthews? Not sure if it's meant to work on wood or not. Just curious if anyone's tried it yet. I think it's a crossover from the PPG line if I'm not mistaken.
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson - The problem with working with glassHi Joe,
I gotta tell you, I wouldn't put any clear finish on a real job until I made one of the test panels I described earlier and had my tests outside for at least a year. I am generally skeptical on this issue from the start. Before I coated a large project with any recommeneded clear, I'd have to be convinced the material would hold up in my area with my climate and altitude. Refinishing a deteriorating clear varnished sign is almost more work than doing it the firt time.
Frog Juice used to be one of Matthews Clears.
Good luck!
Mike Jackson
Danny,
Sorry to hear about you dropping your last piece. Ouch! I am sure we all chuckled a little at the same time we felt your pain because we have all been there.
The problem with glass is it is generally unforgiving. Besides the potential for breaking it, you can easily ruin a piece by simply scratching it. Noel and Mark told me about a big piece of glass Mark Oatis was doing for one of the train stations in Denver. It was something like 1/2" thick plate and 8' tall by 10' wide. After all the chipping and ornamenting was completed, they broke it while setting it back up in the rack. Mark said he has seldom lost more sleep than the night before the company came to pick the piece up and move it to the station.
We were doing some etched and glass work for the White Buffalo Club here not long after we moved to Jackson Hole. They were roughly 4' x 6' panels. I had to move the glass around a couple of times prior to actually working on them. One one of the moves, I accidentally set one corner down a little too hard and it cracked the bottom 8". Luckily for me, I had not done the decoration yet. The finished piece is in Bob Mitchell's Art of Glue-Chipped Glass.
With wood and many other sign materials, you can usually at least salvage a ding or scratch. With glass, you usually get one good shot at it. It is either right or not.
Mike
Mike Jackson
Hi again,
I am sure a few people will remember it. Rick Glawson (I am pretty sure it was Rick anyway) made a really nice glass piece for one of the street buildings. Gary Anderson had made a street scene with about half sized false facade building fronts. Lots of people supplied glass panels and dimensional panels to decorate them. During shipping, one of the panels was broken into about 4 thousand tiny parts. Rick and a couple of people carefully reassembled the glass like a huge puzzle, then covered both sides with clear mylar. The assembled piece was then inserted into the spot in the window. It was definately a shame to see it broken, but also an interesting display of patience to see it reassembled.
Mike
D. Bernhardt - I remember...it was Rick
Danny BaronianAnd it also was the complimentary piece for "Sign Relics" that now is proudly owned by our pal Danny here. Rick seemed to take it all in stride when asked about it and proceeded to give a long explanation about the packing/insurance requirements of UPS. Sure would like to see a photo of it again. Another glass piece destroyed was by Mike Smith of Smithsigns.
Robare M. NovouHave to take something back.
There is a very good clear finish, it's catalyzed urethane, a two part automotive clear. But for the average shop, it's out of the question unless you have a dedicated, heated spray booth.
The clear looks similar to what Noel uses on his work. What do you use Noel?
Too bad this doesn't have an edit feature. Maybe someday.
Danny
Yes, the clear urethane with the hardner is a great choice in clears. We call it "straight urethane". Not to be confused with polyurethane clears or colors.
These straight urethanes seems to be the gold standard of the auto/vehicle painting world.
Several Brands come to mind...sikkens, house of kolor, ppg/ditzler. All available in quarts and gallons.
I have used all three brands over the years, some are thick while others are thin in viscosity. All with great results.
Purchase these fine products from your local autobody supply dealer.
RMN
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads