Brilliant Cut glass Signs

[DAVE SMITH]

Finally got round to posting some photo's here. This cut glass piece is in a pub in Truro ,Cornwall ,UK It's all brilliant cut and wheel polished it's one of 10 panels with different wording on each panel. These signs were in the bar area used as screen dividers. Most of the wall area in the bar is covered in cut glass and acid etched mirrors. The Dress Making glass panel is white acid etched with the letters cut back with a second application of acid to make them clear. The size of the glass is 10'x10'
and looks to be about 1/4'' in thickness. Due to the size of this glass the white acid probably would have been poured onto the surface from 2 corners and possibly one man pouring from the centre reducing the risk of stains in the final piece. and keeping an over-all consitency to the finish.
That's by guess! Would love to hear Pat's or anybody else on this.







The glass is upstairs in the bar and is under a listed building certificate.
(No one is aload to take it out!) Been there since 1887.

Dave

[DAVE SMITH]

This shows the building way back with the glass in place before it was a pub .Probably just been fitted! OK Doug your turn .



Next pub!

Dave

[Dan Seese]

Dave,
I can't speak to the brilliant cutting acid etching techniques - I'll leave that to Pat or others.
I love the vintage photo, seeing the piece in context in it's early life. The facia sign to the left says something about " . . . and Drapery Stores Ltd." Any idea what the rest of it says? Is the lettering on it a bit naive or is it just the skewed view that we are getting? (or am I a bit naive?)
Also, is the other glass piece in the arched window on the left still intact? Can't read it.
Thanks for the treasure.

[Patrick Mackle]

Dave,
MANY thanks to Doug and yourself for posting these great pictures of fine old embosser's and brilliant cutter's craftsmanship! Man, I REALLY love this stuff, it's what got me into glass decorating and signage over 25 years ago.

On your WINES window I suspect that it may have been made and installed earlier than the DRESSMAKERS window. I'm certain that the WINES pane was cut and polished into a clear plate of glass. After the cuts were polished, the glass was hand ground in a circular motion using a glass or brass plate with small grooves cut into the face in conjunction with a grinding slurry of emery and water. Their term of emery was either a fine sand or carborundum (silicon carbide abrasive) Grinding is faster and sharper than painting all those polished cuts with embosser's black to protect them from the acid. In grinding, non of the cuts need protection because they are incised below the grinding action of the fine emery. The frosted appearence between fine grinding and white acid is very close to the common eye. However upon very close magnified inspection you may see a hint of pecking right at the edge of the polished cuts were the collecting loose slurry has left a faint mark.
The frosted tones in the DRESSMAKER window were obviously acid embossed. As previously stated it could have been done at the same time as WINES or later. I say that because in its earlier discovery, HF was used with water alone to etch designs into glass. HF and water mixtures leave a mostly clear incised finish on glass. Therefore to add a frosted contrast the glass would be ground by hand as discribed on the WINES panel. At a later date the addition of soda flakes was introduced to the HF/water mixture to create "white acid" or "french acid". White acid presented a dense white frosted tone which then could be "back polished" using subsequent weakened applications of just HF and water.
I can never see enough of the pieces, got to go to the UK!!
Pat

[DAVE SMITH]

Yes Dan the other glass is also there and I think it reads the same as this one.
Your probably correct on the front fascia text ,looks like the owners done it himself. I made a small brilliant cut panel last week and hand obscured it the same way as you explained Pat. I used the silicon carbide abrasive
Mine as left a hint of pecking as you said on the edges, I have noticed this with alot of cut glass work. Stuart Norton in Newcastle makes the most amazing brilliant cutting , he uses this process on alot of his work still today. I have some more photo's if you would like to see them.

Dave

[Dan Seese]

Well, Dave, if it would make you happy I guess you could show us some other photos.
OF COURSE WE'D LIKE TO SEE THEM!

[DAVE SMITH]

Ok then Dan I will!
Where's Doug gone he's got loads!

Dave

[Ron Berlier]

Dave -

I agree with Dan! Would love to see all the photos you want to post.

I'm curious to know if there is a special trade school in England for those that want to learn how to do Brilliant Cut glass Signs, or is this something learned on one's own? Heck, do they even do it any more?

Ron

[DAVE SMITH]

I'm not certain but I don't think there is any sort of training school on this type of work in the uk. I took an interest in brilliant cutting for the reason of adding dimension and another effects to my glass signs, On some of the early 1900 work you can see lots of acid etching along with gilded and silvered letters and the the odd cut glass scroll or diamond shape which was perfect for highlighting a corner or the centre onament of letters. I started to collect the old stone wheels for cutting about 6 years ago. I had a phone call from a gentleman who lived in Birmingham . He told me he was retiring and he wanted to sell all his brilliant cut equipment , this stuff is so rare to come across. These guy's guard there wheels like we guard our signkits, he had 30 odd wheels with different profiles ,wheels for making punty cuts and oval cuts ,diamond and edge cuts into the glass and two cutting frames for sale made of wood ,he only wanted £500 for the lot.(bargain!). I have met several cutters over here and they all have been very helpful in showing me the do's and don'ts of this craft James Whitchell who runs his own glass shop makes some wonderful cut panels . James worked on the Trump Plaza lift lobby in New York along with Rich Samsuel a cutter from Santa Cruz, Cal, who uses diamond wheels for cutting the glass out quicker and then finishing with his stone carburundum wheels. his website address is-
www.glasslight.com and another cutter Stuart Norton in Newcastle who I stayed with and lear'nt so much just watching this man cut ,with over 40 yrs behind the wheel he really makes it look so easy. There is still many glass cutters over here in the uk most of them seem to be older and some are retiring. You guy's still have alot over there too Noel Weber recently put me onto Tomas Tisch in New York, he is turning out some wonderful cut glass ,he told me there were many cutters spread all over the states especially in Virginia. He has a website http://www.tomastisch.org/about.html. Great glass work he learnt his trade at his parents workshops in Austria.
The main thing I was told from all the cutters I have met was to practice ,practice. so that's what I am doing and trying to blend the craft into my work.

These are two glass panels I have just finished for the sides of my
van. I bought a Morris Minor a year ago and decided to convert it into a working vehicle. Just have the back glass panel to make now.
I hope no one breaks these ! Some cutting above and below signmakers
and on the other sign just two punty cuts at either end. Most of the cutting on this vehicle will be at the back.










Dave

[Larry White]

Hey Dave... good to see you back on the board mate!

-LW

[Patrick Mackle]

Great post Dave.
I had the good fortune to meet Thomas Tisch and also Andreas Lehmann in the early '80's in San Diego at PORTCON. Andreas also is a glass cutter, his website is www.lehmannglass.com. I believe the two had a studio in the Bay area for awhile.
The biggest hurdle to brilliant cutting is finding the old ALOXITE wheels. They were beige or white in color. The more recent red or pink wheels are alot harder and tend to squeel, spark and fire against the glass, no matter how much water is applied. I understand that grinding wheels currently are bonded with silica and fired in a furnace. The older ALOXITE wheels perfered for brilliant cutting were cast in molds simular to concrete. An old timer that used to make them at the Carborundum Company told my friend that they were refered to as "puddle wheels" due to the way they were created. He stated that they were made in numerous molds that resided near the rear of the factory and that they were continuously sprayed with water as they matured, some for up to a year.
I have contemplated remaking these old style molded wheels again in conjuction with the frames, pulleys and arbors. I think it would be great to generate a new interest in that craft.
Pat
P.S. Like the sign says, "Dave Smith, Unusual & Rare"!!

[DAVE SMITH]

I remember talking with you Pat about the puddle wheels a few years ago.
I have several of these wheels in my studio, I have been using the pinky stones since I started ,one favourite stone I use nearly all the time is about 24 '' in diamater and 2'' thick cuts great but I do occasionally get the glass grabbing at the wheel and trying to break into the outer edge of the cut, after speaking with several cutters they all seem to experience this in there cutting. This weekend I will pull out one of the Aloxite wheels and see if I can get these working also. Do you think the grabbing is down to the stones I am using? It only happens on the edge cuts.
The website you sent was great, Can you imagine working on glass at that size, scary stuff! Clever man!
Dave

[Patrick Mackle]

Dave,
First let me say again that I believe grinding wheels that we may acquire today basically fall into two catagories. The first type are a vitrous bond, as in fired at high temp to allow glass or silicates in the raw wheel to fuse and hold the abrasive grains together. These are reddish brown or reddish tan in color and made of standard brown aluminum oxide. The lighter white to light beige are an optical grade of aluminum oxide. They are also marked/labeled with high RPM saftey ranges on their sides. There are also the black vitrious wheels made of silicon carbide (carborundum).

The wheels we treasure as glass cutters are the light colored ALOXITE wheels. These are stamped with the word ALOXITE along with a mixture or grit size code and a MAX RPM which I recall is down around 600-800 RPM, much lower than the vitrious wheels which are used in industry to grind crankshaft journals, cams and such.
I think these older ALOXITE wheels are the "puddle wheels" I heard about.
I believe they cut glass nicely because they are formed without heat and contain no glass bond.
Last night I was imagining how would the Carborundum Company concoct "puddle wheels"? In holding some wheels and magnifying them the idea of calcium carbonate came to mind. I googled "calcium carbonate-cement" and found tons of info on quickline, portland cements and how the whole crystaline bond is constructed. I'm sure that is the basis they used to make those early wheels. I already found more than half the ingredients around my shop, so it won't be too long before I will grow some puddle wheels to test for RPM and gringing quality.

As for the grabbing, squeeking problem this is my experience.
After the wheel has been dressed it is fresh with sharp abrasive grits on the face. Over time these pointed grits are worn flat by the glass, and the wheels cut a little slower. If you view the face of the wheel at an angle to a light bulb you will see a shine reflect off these flattened worn grits. A newly dressed wheel will appear matte with no shine. The dulling of the grit impeeds cutting performance and puts more wheel surface in contact with the glass creating friction and drag.
All types of grinding wheels need to be dressed periodically, but once we've got our glass wheels shaped just right we don't want to mess with them.
Here's my solution. Take a scrap piece of glass and make a stationary cut
to fit the profile of the wheel. Then make up a small mixture of finer silicon carbide and water. Apply the mixture to the cut in the glass and work it aqainst your wheel like a tool, allowing it to dress the shine away. This way you can dress the wheel smoothly without making the grooves a diamond dresser tool would make.
If you see friction fire in your cutting, dressing the wheel will prevent it.
Pat

[DAVE SMITH]

Pat .I tried dressing the wheel with the silicon carbide and it as worked really well. Thanks for the tip ! Let me no when you start making your wheels. Good luck with that idea Pat.



Dave uk

[Doug Bernhardt]

Just to note..This is amazing stuff being discussed and have been following closely. Have had a continuing interest in brilliant cutting and am just about ready to bust right now. Thanx Pat and Dave. For those who find this a bit "esoteric" brilliant cutting is the "carved" areas in the glass pieces so well displayed in the English work of the last century I have been posting in pub photo's.

[Doug Fielder]

Hey Dave....
Can you please post more pics of your own lettering job on your ute?
I am forever fascinated by your skills and layouts.

Thank You!

[erik winkler]

Pat,

Eventhough I know you are a bussy man.
Did you ever succeeded in molding and making the wheels yourself?

Erik

[Patrick Mackle]

Hi Erik,
Do you mean "Did I re-invent the wheel" so to speak?
Well, the story is as you mentioned, I have been TOO busy doing jobs, many of them are large jobs and I worked alone- I always have.
I have although compiled information of the methods and mixtures that are used to make grinding wheels. That included reading a lot of
older patents claimed by early wheel makers. around the time that the old Aloxite (TM) and Alundum wheels were manufactured.
Years ago I contracted a company to custom fabricate some wheels for me, but it was before as much as I know now, and that batch of wheels was
a little too hard and tend to "flame up" against the glass even with water fed to them.
I may try another order.
Pat

[Ingrid Mager]

Pat,
I too need to order a couple of more wheels (unless those ALOXITE wheels you are making are ready to be shipped to me.AH-ahahah) What hardness and grain spacing did you order? Do you happen to remember? Also, did you order mixed grains of white (pure) AO and the standard grey AO (for durability)???

Pacific (connected to Radiac, I believe) used to make custom wheels for glass cutting/bevelling and I have a few of them. At a #320 AO grit, the hardness is "Q" and the grain spacing is "5", so that makes for a pretty hard and dense wheel. I was told they were trying to emulate the old glass cutting stones from days of yore with this spec, but I too, find them a bit hard and prone to flaming if not very well lubricated.

Also, what are these pinkish and reddish stones you refer to? I undestand they dye the white AO to give it a color, but that is usually a light orange, if I am not mistaken. Is that what you were referring to,or is it something else alltogether?

And finally, is there any reason you "were" (since you posted this 6 years ago..) suggesting using a piece of carbide laden glass to redress a wheel instead of just a plain old fine, carborundum dressing stone?

~Inga

[Patrick Mackle]

Hi Inga,
The first part of your questions is a big subject, so I will answer your last question quickly as I currently have a moment for it.
I use lose silicon carbide and water place upon a scrap piece of glass that have just been cut on the wheel I want to "dress".
These lose grains roll against the glass cut and break the "glaze" on the wheel and give it a sharper bite and also reduces the tendency for the wheel to grab the glass as in making puntys.
I find that using a dressing stick puts very fine grooves into the wheel which must be worked out before returning to the project piece.
Pat

[Ingrid Mager]

•I have been told that "loading" a wheel is necessary in order to have a good cutting wheel, but it does seem to slow down the cutting action......but are loading and glazing two different things or different degrees of the same (???)

•With your method Pat, is it that the loose carbide will sharpen up the grit withoutdisturbing the glass that has loaded in between the grains? Just trying to understand.....

Thanks,
Inga

[Ingrid Mager]

I use lose silicon carbide and water place upon a scrap piece of glass that have just been cut on the wheel I want to "dress".
These lose grains roll against the glass cut and break the "glaze" on the wheel and give it a sharper bite and also reduces the tendency for the wheel to grab the glass as in making puntys.

Oh NOW I get it. Duh. I thought you were doing a profile cut into a piece of glass with carbide on it and somehow holding that up to the stone just like you would a carbide dressing stick. Duh. Good idea. I will try it~
Thanks,
Inga

[Ingrid Mager]

•I have been told that "loading" a wheel is necessary in order to have a good cutting wheel, but it does seem to slow down the cutting action......but are loading and glazing two different things or different degrees of the same (???)..................

Okay - I am going to answer my own question in case anybody is interested and is following along.:

Loading is when the glass you are cutting fills in in between the grains on the grinding wheel. In filling in the tiny gaps, it smooths down the cutting surface of the wheel, and hence the texture of the cut. However, it does reduce the aggressiveness/bite of the cut.

Glazing is when the actual grains that are imbedded with the cutting wheel's matrix get smoothed down. Often when the stone is too hard, the grains do not get properly "ripped out" of the matrix to reveal sharp new abrasive, and this polishing of the grains in question will render a glazed look to the wheel's surface.

Most of the wheels I have seen for cutting glass get quite a glaze to them and I can surmise this is because hard stones are sought after so that they will hold their shape well in order to produce fine, angular cuts. But there is a balance - too hard, and the wheels will squeal and even burn; too soft, and you will be constantly dressing the wheel trying to maintain its profile.

Hope somebody cares, LOL....
Inga