Which CNC router should I go for?

[erik winkler]

Dan Sawatzky, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian, joe cieslowski and all you other three dimensional creators.

If I would have to buy a good three dimensional router and software program for wich brand and series should i go?
My interest is normal v-carved signs, wich i then could gild.
But also eloborate 3-d work, wich after completed i could redefine by hand....
Ofcourse there are some cheap ones and some incredible expensive ones.
Small, medium and large cnc routers.... I think a cnc router which can handle sheets of 122 x 244cm (48 inch x 96 inch) will absolutely do, or is this to big or to small?

I remember my dad, 15 years ago, allways wanted to buy a router, but my mom simply asked him if 'this new toy' of him would earn back his money.
"Eeuhmmm.... nope...." Most of our earnings were derived from those simple vinyl graphics, so it was not an interesting investment.

Since i saw some of your inspiring works in combination with the sandblasted textures in wood or hdu i know here in Nederland (Europe) i can create my own market. But before i buy the wrong machine and software i have to know which is which and what is what.
Because in Nederland we do not use routers in the 3d-manner i see on your web-sites i would like to hear from you what to look for and eventually buy.
And in combination with a good workshop at one of you guys and dolls i can start learning to expand my woodcarving interests.

[Kelly Thorson]

Hi Eric,
I can't tell you a whole lot about routers. What I can tell you is the journey I went through in regards to making the decision not to purchase one.
I've got some pretty good friends in the sign industry who have routers and the work they produce from them is amazing. I'm always excited about new ideas and possibilities, and I kept thinking about how great it would be to have a tool that would make 3D so much easier and more precise.
In the end I needed to sit myself down and do some soul searching to figure out my priorities. In the end it always comes back to glass and my art. I know that in order to push the router to the limits (I would not be satisfied with any less than that), the learning curve would be immense. While I am strong in math and abstract thinking, and really enjoy challenges in that field, I realized it would need to become (for a period of time at least) all inclusive and I would have to set aside my other passions. It came down to a decision as to what I loved most. The great thing is that I do have connections to those with routers, so when I do have a job that I really need that for I can sub it out to them.
My husband wants to build a CNC router/plasma cutter. He has the ability to build large equipment and is very computer saavy, so some day I may still get one.

I'm not trying to talk you out of getting a CNC. They have amazing capabilities. But I have also noticed your enthusiasm and excitement about the glass work, and other aspects of the trade and so I thought this worth mentioning. It's all fascinating, but if you wish to become a master at anything you have to chose where to put your focus. I have a lot of trouble with that.

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
We sold our shop 13 years ago, including our router. We had one of the older Gerber routers...I think it was a 404, capable of cutting something like 48"x54". The people that bought our shop later purchased a Gerber Sabre that can cut 4x8.

At the time we sold the shop, we had been migrating away from sandblasting and more towards dimensional signs cut by the router. They still sell both products.

If I were to start my "real" sign business, an 8' Sabre Router would be the first big item I purchased. I pretty much doubt that will ever happen now, but it probably answers your question.

Good luck with your quest.

Mike Jackson

[erik winkler]

I posted the same topic on the Letterville site which was anwered by a few professional router experts.
After slept over the problems and solutions they mentioned i came up with the same idea as you just described.
Focusing..... But there are two things a want to do:
1. Making fine glaswork.
2. Making fine wood-/hduwork.

To be honoust i can not understand that there is no melting in the two crafts.
Or by one and the same artist or by a glassworking artist who orders a custommade frame, at an hdu-/woodworker, (or visa versa)to put in his glas as to sell it as a complete piece of art. Because most of the beatifull pieces i have saw on the forum or individual websites i noticed that they were not framed in the same manner.

What to do... Since my interest in the glasswork started by searching for more information about sandblasted signs i still think there must be a good partnership in the two crafts. Compare it with a good engine without a chasis. And i have to admit there are engine workers on the one hand and car designers on the other. So maybe i have to look for an external firm which can make the elaborate wood designs i have in my head, but than again we do not have people who can make the fine 3d wood-/hdu works you have in the states or canada. So maybe i will try to learn a little 3d designing and order the work externaly by sending a design-file by mail...
Or better yet just let it be done outside Nederland and have it sended to me by priority mail

Erik

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
I believe you will find a lot of people bridging both dimensional signage and glass signage. Noel Weber comes to mind right off. Also, John Studden, Mark Oatis, and a lot more people here on this forum. I don't think it is an either/or situation.

Ultimately, adding a CNC router can cost $60,000 to $100,000 and take up a lot of space. Numbers like that make them cost prohibitive for most people running a small shop. Glass work, on the other hand, can be done fairly well with minimal investment in equipment.

M. Jackson

[erik winkler]

Thanks Mike,

That is the basic slep in my face that i needed after going totally crazy with enthusiasm to start making the things i like.
Maybe i AM getting to grow up like my dad after all .
Accept i am still fooling around in town and do not have a wife, like my dad, who now and then brings me back to earth with the question: "Will it earn it back its money?".

I think i will train myself with the enroute 3d router software and outsource the jobs to a company who owns a multicam router....
First of all a workshop at Grandpa Dan's if i have the time to take a week vacation.
In the mean while i will continue to work on my woodcarving skills and hope the days go on quickly so that i can attent Dave Smiths workshop soon!

Overenthusiastic Erik

[Dan Sawatzky]

I considered outsourcing my routing for about three seconds before I decided it would be better to simply own my own router. And I'm glad I did.

Back when I looked at routers there weren't many folks doing 3D work with them. Its a fact most folks use their machines as a jigsaw. Its still that way for the most part although its changing.

I believe that you will do much more imaginative work if you create the files and route your own stuff. You'll figure out what works and what doesn't much quicker, and be able to make changes on the fly. I filled our dumpster whith plenty of scrap when we started, and still produce the odd piece that goes there on occasion. But having the machine handy to experiment with and to continually push the boundaries and limits is an exciting thing - critical if you want to be a leader. You will also be able to better figure out where to stop the machine and add some details by hand with a minimum of effort.

We figured it would take two years to pay for our router. We amortised it over 4 years just to be sure... but it paid for itself in less than a year. We bought a top end router (MultiCam 3000 series) and now I am very glad we did for the machine will serve us for many, many years without worry, paying for itself many times over. More importantly the top end machine allows me to concentrate on my art rather than the machine.

The Router Magic Workshops we offer are a good investment for both those with routers who wish to go further with dimension and texture as well as those seriously considering a router. We will do our best to answer the thousands of questions folks have... the same questions I was asking when I was considering our router purchase. I made hundreds of long distance phone calls and spent countless hours doing my homework before we made our purchase decision for it IS a big invenstment which you only want to do once. We also share the knowlege in our workshops that took years of experimentation ad learning to gather.

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Erik,
I thought about your question a little more and can throw out a little more food for thought.

I think you will find that a lot of people doing nice work with high end equipment (such as routers) did so with primitive tools for a long time before investing in the equipment. Maybe they hand carved their signs on panels they cut out with a jig saw or band saw for years before buying a 3d carver or software. By the time they added the equipment, they already had the base skills to make the top notch work and the high tech equipment simply gave them an opportunity to do them faster and with a little less hand work.

Conversely, I suspect many companies purchased the high tech equipment expecting it to make them rich with a push of a button. Without the background in the skills of the "trade", the equipment is nothing more than a limited crutch.

It sounds like you have a lot of spirit and enthusiasm. That's a wonderful trait, but I personally suggest you begin at the ground floor and work towards the expensive tools. Besides needing a shop to put it in, you still need a good table saw, band saw, joiner, radial arm saw, and so on, and so on. Many of those items are $700 or less and can pay for themselves in short order.

Hope this helps some,
Mike Jackson

[Danny Baronian]

Hi Erick,

Without curbing your enthusiasm after reading through the posts and your responses, I believe your most pressing concern is to determine the direction you want to take with sign making, which is something only you can do.

I've had a router for 12 years and it's added tremendously to my shop. But.... prior to that the shop looked like any well equipped cabinet shop: jointer, table saw, band saw, pin router, bander, boring machine, drill press, sanders and assorted hand tools. I spent a lot of time on the band saw and sander, cutting letters out and sanding the edges as needed.

For me it was good start without a router, because either way, I could make most everything by hand. The routers big plus is repeatability, accuracy, volumn and productivity. Letters that used to take 6 hours to cut can be done on the router in under an hour, and rarely require any touch up once off the machine. It added repeatability and accuracy that would be hard to match by hand. In the last 4 years I've added 3D, but it was added because there was a market for it. In the end the router has been a good addition to the shop. But if I had to I could make it without the router.

You need to sit down with someone that's in the business, preferably someone with a router if that's the course you plan on taking. By now you probably have an idea of the costs, which for starting out is prohibitive.

I'd suggest getting your hand on as many SignCraft magazines that you can. Especially look in older issues for Lloyd Nightengale. Unfortunately he didn't seem to write a lot or articles, but I was always impressed with the work he did with basic tools. His work wasn't as pristine as a lot of work produced today, but I always enjoyed seeing his simple, well executed work.

If you get a chance get a hold of Henry Baker in Sweden, he owns a commercial shop by the name of SignCraft. He's a nice and talented guy, and would be a good source of information. It would also be easier talking with someone on the phone in the same time zone.

I hope this helps. If you need any more information, post it, or send me an email.

Danny

[erik winkler]

Mike and Danny (and ofcourse the rest who were so kind to give me their opinion) you can't imagine how greatfull i am to talk (and especially listen) with some guys who are more in this kind of sign trade than me and even any other Dutch signmaker. It is very hard for me to get good information about making 3d signs. Since the first time i saw sandblasted and carved signs in Florida America some 16 years ago it had been bugging in my mind: "How did they do that and how can i introduce that in Nederland". Nobody and i mean nobody in Nederland makes these things! Ofcourse we have a woodcarving history, but not as elaborate as our german neighbours from Bavaria or Austria. Where cold winters forced people to hide for months in their house and began devolping great carving skills. English pub-signs ofcourse are also often of a very great quality, but from what i have seen (i have been to britain about 23 three times) they are more flat than 3d.

Recently i probably bought the best carving books and how to books of making 3d sign in wood and HDU. But the signcraft magazine is a different story. I know Mike Jackson wrote a lot of articles in signcraft because i read some of them illegaly through internet. But since this beautifull magazine excists since 1906 ( i think) it is unfortunatly not possible for me to buy all the past magazines.... I did this with all the volumes of the Letterhead Magazines and liked it a lot. Took me 2 weeks and many late nights. Reading and reading are two different things, i sucked every picture and letter in mine brain.

But reading is not working. I know now i can best try to carve by hand, but a workshop at one American or Canadian (Australians can do some good things also, even the guy in Greece and now i hear even nearby in Sweden) signbussines is a must! A selfmade man is often the most creative one, but this is too much to ask from me since i still have to run my own signbussines. There for i think i have to make a technical leap and learn the essentials from a master in the craft.

[Raymond Chapman]

Erick,

You just heard from some of the best in the business. Their advice is not based upon theory, but actual experience and their success is testimony to their wisdom.

We've had a flat bed router for two years now and it has saved us countless hours and made us more productive. However, for thirty years prior to that I was doing dimensional work just using regular wooodworking tools and sandblasting. I might add that the majority of the techniques that I used were borrowed from the guys that have posted before me.

A router is just another tool. The design that comes out of your head is what makes a sign a success or failure.

You can carve a niche' in the sign business in your part of the world by doing this type of work, especially if no one else is doing the same thing. If you love what you do and do it with passion, the customers will come to you.

[Dale Feicke]

Obviously you've received some good advice from some good people. You've heard what routers cost. Now, do you have the volume of work to pay for the router? You know, the bills will keep coming, whether the work does or not.

If you have good skills with hand tools, a decent volume of work, and a craftsman's heart, why not stick with the basics? No need to get in over your head right off the bat. Check out the new Signs of the Times and look at the beautiful work Brother Zank is doing without a router. No reason why you can't also.