Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum!
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.

AKA: Handlettering

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

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oatis
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:33 am

AKA: Handlettering

Post by oatis »

I am happy to know the site exists, though my thrill at discovering it is ,frankly,tempered a bit upon my first perusal.

In my city, we have large neighborhoods filling up with recent immigrants. The business owners in those areas, (themselves new residents) spend virtually no money on signs: what they DO buy are amateur, handmade creations, fraught with misspellings--in several languages.

I pull over in traffic to study these naive objects, and try to decipher the problem-solving process involved. I take time to look at them, as I once drove all over town, obsessively memorizing the glorious work of Denver's sizeable stock of crackerjack professional signpainters.

I can't remember the last time I glanced twice at anything done in vinyl.

When a slick-surfaced panel is tossed on a bench and, (following a cursory moment's hen-scratch with a grease pencil) a flooded brush dances across its surface, handlettering occurs. And sometimes, if the practitioner is a caring artist of long discipline and dedication, magic even happens.

I will have my hands full just working the balance of my career trying to become a journeyman, and to remain true to that tradition. I can always spot the real thing--there's emotion present.

I'll keep my eyes peeled for the topics that deal with handmade letters, as per the title, and try to contribute as I can.

I'm less interested in the materials/techniques items--they're more about process, less about passion.
Jay Allen
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:32 am

Post by Jay Allen »

Mark,

But at what point does commerce - and providing a decent living for your family - intersect with passion and the desire to create something tangible and expressive if technology and the use of it to make a profit dictates our very survival as sign designers?

That's the real quandary isn't it? Are we just pining for the 'old days' since they hold our fondest memories - much like we hold onto the things we did as children? It's my 'Macaroni and cheese' theory. No matter how old - or how sophisticated - we get, we still pull the old box of Kraft Mac-N-Cheese down out of the cupboard every now and then. Certainly our pallettes are far more selective, sophisticated and exposed these days - but Mac-N-Cheese becomes 'comfort food' harkening back to a time when life was less complicated.

Or are we really depriving our clients - and ourselves - of quality work with the magic within the sign? What is fair to our clients? Lettering paints don't last as long as vinyl - fact. Will our customers even call us up if we continually provide them with a 'magically' superior product (design-wise) yet with inferior durability.

I passed a double-faced sign Saturday night that I hand lettered when we moved into our shop in 1993. It is on the north side of a building - rarely sees sunlight - and still hasn't cracked or peeled in any spots. Almost 12 years!!?? Try that with today's lettering paints. It just won't happen.

So - like you - I seek to experience the energy of a Letterhead meet daily - but since design and running the business userp the ability to create by hand, I have to go with survival. (Plus, that makes the bank a lot happier!!) Where is the happy medium if the list of potential clients who desire hand-lettering shrinks every day?

Good post!!

Jay Allen
Rick Chavez
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: Hemet, CA

Post by Rick Chavez »

I find the signs interesting, it would be a good debate...is it visual clutter or artform? I have a few books on street graphics....I myself, find it fascinating that they do this work, and is it any different than early roadside signage from the 20's and 30's . Here is an interesting link on one type of street signage:

http://www.lavitrina.com/sensacional.htm
Bob Rochon
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 11:47 pm

Post by Bob Rochon »

Great Post.

Let's take gold leaf jobs for example,

Today we have a product that is gold and in vinyl nature, some chanted it will bring back gold leaf jobs, and it has, I see a ton of em rolling around now,..I can't read 98% of them but I see a ton of them.

Now does this actually make a surge for more gold leaf jobs or does it deter some from wanted them because the material that is produced today doesn't reflect hand laid and spun gold leaf that is not detering from reading the message. Today's product lasts longer, is quick to apply, no real skill is needed and it is a money maker.

But does is do our customers any benefit? because the pattern is machined is becomes busy and extremely hard to read, thus making the message undesireable to look at. If that same job was hand laid, hand spun and the spins plced properly to fit each letter that same message would Jump alive and command attention, thus benefitting our customers greatly.

Granted it will not last 14 years but what good is something that lasts 14 years if it doesnt work from day one?

Now this is not an argument or a slam towards anyone or any method, but in my eyes I can see and sell the value in hand applied lettering for the sake of advertising and money making for my customers.

Isn't it the art of eye appeal? somewhere that has been lost in a spread sheet or bank statement or corporate lunch room.
Last edited by Bob Rochon on Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Some People's Kids"
Rick Chavez
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: Hemet, CA

Post by Rick Chavez »

On a similar note, I went to an event where Adam Cruz from House Industries was there. His observance was hand lettering was a dying art but I believe it has adapted, if you look at the process House Industries uses to do thier work and artists like those on http://www.gigposters.com and a few other graphic designers I know, there are other ways to apply the craft of hand lettering, it's just looking for other ways to do it.
cam bortz
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am

Post by cam bortz »

Like other hand crafts, hand lettering will die out in general use, and continue to be learned and used by a few specialists, who will find a market for it. That's economic reality; supply and demand does and will continue to dictate value.

I am eternally thankful that I entered this trade at a time when the opportunity existed to learn hand-lettering from an experienced journeyman. For the first six years in business (it's now 16 years) I had no computer or plotter; everything was hand drawn and hand lettered. While I still letter a fair bit, it's been a while since I made patterns by hand; I actually find that skill is more vulnerable to decay from non-use than actual lettering.

One place I maintain an almost religious adherence to hand work - both layout and lettering - is in boat lettering. I maintain that computer-generated work - whether it is vinyl or patterns - is utterly unsuitable for boats. The complex compound curves of even a simple transom can only be properly complimented by the hand and eye of a skilled painter - almost any mechanical substitute gets it anywhere from not-quite-right to god-awful. Unfortunately, when "perfect" letters, mechanical layouts and trick distortion effects become the norm, the standard of quality sinks into mediocrity, and only a few discerning clients seem to notice or care. Those few, however, know the difference and will pay for it. As for time/money, an average boat transom - lettered in a brush roman with a simple drop shadow and a hailing port - takes me anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half to execute, and my minimum charge is $150. I've done as many as six in a day. I eat well on those wages, Jay. :mrgreen:
Jill Marie Welsh
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:40 am
Location: Butler, PA USA

Post by Jill Marie Welsh »

I am lucky enough to get to handletter at least once a week.
There is nothing more satisfying to me.
After 19 years at it, I still learn something every time I go to a meet or look at a good lettering book.
Sometimes my letter forms leave a lot to be desired, but I have had a few golden moments where everything goes the way I had envisioned.
I do provide vynull lettering...like Jay says, I have to eat. But nothing beats the feeling of lettering by hand. And the look of it could never be replicated with a machine. A machine has no eyes or heart or sense of what looks "right". A machine does not know how to spell or space properly. But when someone buys a plotter, they are instantly in their own mind a "sign maker".
I like to see vynull people who are willing to learn to letter. It is rare, but it does happen. I try to help them when I can. Hand lettering is not dying, it is evolving.
I am happy when a customer comes to the shop asking for hand lettering because they have seen my work on a sign somewhere. It makes my job a lot better for all concerned...especially me!
Love...Jill :wink:
John Lennig
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 10:53 am
Location: Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
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Post by John Lennig »

Handlettering. I've loved it ever since I began doing it 41 years ago. From '86 til 2000 I shared that love with computer design/lettering in my sign business.

At that time, I decided to make a change, eliminate having to make the choice between using the computer and doing it ALL by hand.(that involved selling the business and equipment.) and Now the thing is, it wasn't/isn't always easy. I have to search out opportunities for this work, but it's beginning to grow on it's own now too. It is certainly not all "fancy and unique....AMAL kinda work!! ." Honky barges, tugs, parking garage graphics, mixed in with vintage logos on vintage trucks, coca cola stuff, bmx bikes, swap panels. And IATSE work, a real change from real world work, TV, Movies.

I just love to manipulate a brush, and decided to do that for the rest of my days, cause i didn't want to wonder later"....what if I had???"
Also, I was able to, with the support of my wife.

Money/work is irregular, sometimes very regular, love that overtime! but all in all, it gives me great pleasure, and $$ to put aside for the odd workshop/roadtrip/meet.

John Lennig / SignRider
"You spelled it wrong!"
Lee Littlewood
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 2:36 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon
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handlettering/money/passion

Post by Lee Littlewood »

You know, maybe we've got it all wrong, thinking that it is 'vinyl' versus 'hand'. If it is all about passion/emotion/feeling/humanism/whatever, maybe we should be trying to se how best to put that into vinyl/digital print/CADrouter work. I mean, it is hard to deliver emotion when it has to go through a machine first.
When printing started, handlettering with a pen pretty much shriveled up. But people got excited about making letterforms in lead, and printing, and designing books, and much of that juice can still be felt hundreds of years later if you see some old books.
More recently, it seems to me that a lot of people have done well with computerized routers - how does that combination make for fun?
....................................
I have a sneaking suspicion that the most common denominator is "hand work", a feeling that gets into something when it passes thru your hands not just your brain. Maybe computer router stuff gets fondled and shaped a bit more than "made by machine" would suggest?
Are there ways to get more "hand" in our handicraft? Should we be looking for pen tablets, joysticks, guitar thingys as ways to control our computers? Maybe we just need to wait till the younger generation grows up, people who feel more connected to the computer and can think inside its constraints?
What if vinyl were manufactured to age gracefully?
...........................................
An English dude, David Pye, talks about "craft work" and "work of risk," where the difference is that every stroke you make in "work of risk" can be a mistake and blow the whole thing. Pottery seems like a good set of examples - you can make nice pots on a wheel and know where you're going ("craft work", lots of skill needed but in familiar territory), but take one of those pots and decorate it with a brush or dipping and you risk a hideous final piece. Every typestyle letter on your computer will come out right, the place you take your risks are in the design, and there you can (and should) fix any mistakes. For that matter someone lettering "ForSale" all day long wasn't taking many risks - he pretty much know how it would come out after the first few. But on a one-off job you are usually surprised by something in the final product - hopefully it looks good, but there is the excitement. So why doesn't that seem to transfer through the vinyl cutter?
Wayne Osborne
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:03 am
Location: West Sussex.England

Post by Wayne Osborne »

98% of my work is handlettered, I am lucky enough to live/work in a very special area (all listed ,medievel ,and older buildings) and we have more of a tradition for it over here in the UK,
-I buy in some pre -cut vinyl from a friendly local shop and they swap me for any wall or gold leaf work they get.-It works out and I get known for the hand lettered stuff especially in a small town where things change fast and clients seem to want that -"Look"
Whats always important to me is the craft itself, -I view it as Just another way of getting the same result-
Kent Smith

All by "hand"

Post by Kent Smith »

I must say that I handletter each week but that is not the majority of my volume. I find great joy in creating that way but after 49 years, my back, my calf muscles, my neck, my elbow, my index finger, my hip and my **** heels, would not hold up to 8-10 hours 5-6 days a week anymore. I worry too about the durability of enamels and all the KUV tests will not convince me that the synthetic pigments and resins that are now in use will be as durable as the old formulas. On the other hand, realize that the exact same pigments are used in vinyl with the only advantage of some UV protection in the PVC fomulation itself. The head of formulations at Arlon was expaining to me about 3 years ago that their primary advantage was having an adhesive which would stick to more surfaces than paint because everyone uses the same colorants.

For me, Lee has the right idea. The medium does not matter. I find that I approach all layout the same and have been told by many others that my work looks like it was handlettered or at least designed by hand. I just finished lettering a 1950 vintage gas tanker for the 4th Parade and used Dad's patterns and photos as a guide. Even though the job is done in vinyl, it looks like it was handlettered from 3 feet away. Many of the other shops around the area send customers to me who want that kind of look and feel to their signs, vinyl or paint. Even my Edge prints look like they were done by a sign painter and not a designer. This is mosttimes good but sometimes not good enough depending upon the audience. At least with the computer I can see right away what looks really ugly.
Roderick Treece
Posts: 1086
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:04 pm
Location: San deigo Calif
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Post by Roderick Treece »

Thanks for all the diferent veiw points.

As for me I still letter everything by hand , even banners.There are so many vinyl shops I see no point in investing in expensive equipment.When I do use my BRAND NEW plotter so far it's been to make patterns and masks(great for glue chipping). I don't miss being shocked by the electro pounce or raw fingers from cutting butter cut mask.

My all time favorite thing is lettering late at night with a wide truck lettering brush,when you can hear the brush move across the surface.

At this point in history if your in the sign biz to make a great profit doing everything by hand will not do.But for me after all these years it's about doing as fun of jobs as possible.I have very low over head so I can make it through until the next job.That way I have time to do art work or backpainted glass in between jobs.

Roderick
Dan Seese
Posts: 324
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Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Post by Dan Seese »

Mark,
What a great post. You've made the leap from learning how to send an email to starting a post!
This is something I think about all the time.
Yesterday while I was hanging a sign a bloke from England saw me and stopped to have a chat. Graham was traditionally trained as a signwriter in 1957, eventually moved into the computer age but then a few years back gave up the computer. Sounds like he's mostly retired but still does a tanker or a canal boat which are all hand lettered. We talked of creating a letter with as few brush strokes as possible and the inablility for a computer to make the little adjustments that each specific job needs.
Marshall McLuhan, in 1964 wrote about the effects of technology on human society in his book "Understanding Media" and spoke of each form of technology as being an extension of the human body. Heck, even with a brush, our design is still being mediated through an extension of our hand. He wrote, "The message of any medium or technology is the change of scale or pace or pattern that it introduces into human affairs. The railway did not introduce movement or transportation or wheel or road into human society, but it accelerated and enlarged the scale of previous human functions, creating totally new kinds of cities and new kinds of work and leisure."
If we relate that to the computer and sign-making we see that there is an irreversible change that has been brought to our craft. There is good and bad with it - always a trade off - and we need to recognize the strengths and weaknesses. I don't hand letter nearly as much as I used to but even when I do use the computer, I try not to make it sterile or mechanical but make it "hand-crafted" by bringing in those nuances and human elements specific to the occasion that only a human can do. Both Lee and Kent make this point in their posts.
Having said that, as McLuhan said, "the medium is the message". In other words, each medium has it's own intrinsic message it will portray. For instance, if you were to make a sign which said "Handcrafted", there would be a completely different message portrayed if you did it with a digital print as opposed to swinging a quill. Conversely, how would you approach a sign that said "Cutting-Edge Digital Imaging"? No amount of One Shot on the tip of your brush is going to achieve what that digital printer can do.
One last McLuhan quote which both Jay's and Roderick's posts bring to mind:
"The nature of people demands that most of them be engaged in the most frivolous possible activities—like making money."
There is something very immediate about mixing your paint to the proper consistancy, smelling it as it is laid on the surface and being intimately involved in each step of the creative process, but it doesn't always pay the bills. I continue trying to figure out how to both make my work meaningful as well as make money at the same time, how to embrace the technology without being driven by it. If you figure it out, let me know.
Jay Allen
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:32 am

Post by Jay Allen »

All outstanding posts - with Dan Seese bringing them all together with eloquent references to meaningful work. I am as proud to be associated with a group of craftsmen who at least TRY to balance between commerce and passion as I am anything else in my life.

(I hope other BB's will take heed of this particular discussion and see the civility and depth of what we REALLY share besides the sign arts - and no verbal assaults, just expressions of opinion freely. See, it CAN be done!!)

While non of us (while still sign artists) are likely to ever have treasures beyond our wildest dreams (and the nightmares that can accompany them sometimes) there will always be a sense of seeking righteousness and fairness to the true self. Life can exist without passion - but all creation would stop. In this profession I am surrrounded by like minds - and that brings me great peace when I really think about it.

A simple stick with bound together hairs - or encased lead - magically transforming any surface into a creation of their own design. Sounds poetic - but it must be balanced by providing for family and self.

How to do both? Look up the definition of hobby. Seriously, look it up.

One of my favorite sayings:
"A true artist isn't necessarily the painter, the poet, the sculptor, the musician, etc. He may be a man wending his way through life, only he is set apart from the mass of humanity by his insight into the very nature of things, and his search for "reasons why" has brought him higher on the human scale of things."

No wonder we all get along so well at Letterhead meets.

Jay
Harry Malicoat

Post by Harry Malicoat »

Mark's post and each and every reply to it not only remind me of those 'old' reasons I am proud to be a 'signpainter', but actually caused a deep emotion to overcome me as I read it for the first time. It has been quite awhile since I have posted or replied, but I do read every word on this forum. There are many good topics, and many of them are posted by many good friends. It is a place to feel the presence of friends at times like this when I can't sleep.
This post, however, brought a feeling to this evening that I haven't felt often enough for far too long. It is the essence of what we -- the LETTERHEADS -- are. I can feel the emotion in each of the replies. I can feel the longing for the brush, but mostly I can feel the LOVE for the ART.
My brushes get wet every day. I use the computer for the speed of recreation (most of my customers are regulars), but I seldom use lettering of someone else's design (I mostly use my own fonts) without reworking them. I clean the stabilo lines off my screen somewhat regularly, since I refuse to design without the feeling of the pencil. I still only sell paint (even though I use a lot of mask). I know this makes me a dinosaur (even with the computer), but there are only about 3 painters left in the area and about 140 vinyl shops. I realize that I am competing in an ever shrinking market, but there is still a larger market share for the three of us than there is for the vinyl guys, and there is so much more satisfaction. I seldom do anything single color. Even my most simple job has color blends, outlines, shadows, color reverse panels, pearl faces, leaf .... WOW, I'm smiling again.
Even in this progressive new world, a very small percentage of this ever increasing population makes their living doing a job that allows for personal satisfaction. Few people ever get to hear that they did their job "beautifully", or that they created something better or more desireable than the next guy doing the same job. Mark, Jay, Dan, Kent, Roderick, Lee ...... I am proud to be able to relate to so many 'friends' on a single post. It is very gratifying to have been able to have merged my hobby with my livelyhood for 35 years. I still enjoy what I do and who I am ........ smile.
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Hi Mark,
I am quite happy you found the Hand Lettering Forum. Feel free to post as often as you can!

This thread seems to have hit a nerve for many in a positive way. The Forum has a diverse cross section of sign artists and we all struggle to balance the creative spirit with the technology at our fingertips and still feed the always hungry monster we create—the overhead and family lifestyle. Over the years, for me at least, my priorities shift and how I approach each project adjusts as necessary. I guess I am not driven so much by the strictly purist approach of having to design everything on paper with a 2B pencil and hand letter it with OneShot as much as the simple act of trying to make something both my client and myself will appreciate.

The "passion" is still there, but it is much more diluted now than it was when I attended the Boise Bar-B-Q in 1982. At the time, I was single and still trying to absorb so much so fast. Now, of course, I have a family with other passions and demands. Taking the computer and all the technology out of the formula, I'd still have to juggle the elements of design, production, demands, and lifestyle and more than likely I'd still probably hit a similar "balance" that I like today.

Assuming my eyes were still good and my fingers didn't fall asleep when I hand letter, I'd still have to work darned hard and for many hours to generate the income necessary to support the family. At this point, I look at "raising the family" as a project and the sign making as a single element in that overall big design. The number of dollars generated isn't quite as important as how I spend the day as a whole. Given the choice, I'd rather bang out a pile of computer generated panels and have time to watch Corey play a baseball game than sit in front of the bench hand lettering For Sale signs and miss the game.

As a whole, the members of this Forum share a common interest in sign making and hand lettering even though there can never be a single template all of us even try to follow. Ironically, there is a group of people who hand letter 100%, but will never find this site because they don't even own a computer.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Guest

Post by Guest »

Interesting topic, and, Hello John, he's kinda my neighbour.........I would like to comment on the remark about House Industries......... but, not in a serious or frivolous fashion........the font designer's use the basic talent of hand drawn. and/or painted letter styles to make their living. Now, with that being said, I believe thats a good thing! It has provided the shops that produce vinyl only work, with an opportunity to have some flair in the work they produce......and........some incredibly hillarious signs......I particularly love the script's used with no kerning....:)))).......I, like a lot of other gray haired sign people have tried to return to hand painted only, I'll be darned if all my old "vinyl" customers are'nt tracking me down.....it's not the hand painted or vinyl situation.....It's design and quality, and, of coarse.......service........
cheryl
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: seattle
Contact:

Post by cheryl »

Hey bleau......how's my favorite neighbor doing?
As far as handlettering.....I don't get that many calls for handpainted signs either, but I do make a lot of handpainted 'gone fishing' and 'gone golfing' signs for friends & customers. This allows me to make signs as I used to, instead of just doing vinyl all the time, plus it uses up all the MDO scraps I have in my shop. .
Guest

Post by Guest »

Ahhh!...Darlin, I slipped up...you are my favorite neighbour......It's great to slop a little design and effort without the putor.......looks a lot better too!
my new mail is..... norwood_ron@hotmail.ca
cam bortz
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am

Post by cam bortz »

It occurs to me that technology in this industry replaces tasks which a few people could do because they enjoyed them, with tedious, mind-numbing work that anyone can do, bu no one enjoys - or am I missing the folks who write about the rapturous joys of weeding? Vinyl is to me a technical substitute pushed on us by an increasingly machine-oriented society. Like a lot of these so-called innovations, it is touted as "labor saving" - yet do those who work exclusively in vinyl work fewer hours, for better pay, than those who work only in paint, or who combine the two? If not, then it's a self-deceptive sham, an empty promise, and needs to be examined interms of it's true costs beyond the supposed labor that is supposedly saved.

I once heard a comment that went something on the lines of "How do you know signpainters are stupid? They spend a great deal of money on equipment to make their work faster and easier, in order to sell it for less money." Sad but true.
cheryl
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: seattle
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Post by cheryl »

Well I get billions for all my signs.
Jack Wills
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:29 pm

Post by Jack Wills »

As I am no longer an artist in the sign sense, having gladly joyfully
stepped aside to watch from a distance the harmony of those who
embrace the need to excel to hieghts of desire as the neo breed of
sign professionals I sink into my personal slumber as a fine artist.
Not hardly a creamer ( as we refered to those nice projects that
turned out right ) would surface during a weeks time due to the fact
that most of our work was like a job that we all do to get a pay check.
Most of the nice stuff that just kicked as came from a mood and
you knew when you were on and that brush not only danced across
the pristine surface in ballet form but it had the majic of choosing the
right color, the right outline, the perfect shade and layout balance
and never skipped a beat.
You would hum for a week or so before moving back into the grind of
pumping out SIGNS.
I sometimes wonder if a lot of the older journeymen even knew how
good they were?
So many great painters that were never heard of would go about the
day peckin' away at thier craft and loving the life they lived.
I just hope that I was able to taste a smiggin of the era.

Jack Wills
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