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Angel Gilding/Mirror silvering questions

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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Keith Pettit
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Location: East Sussex, England
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Angel Gilding/Mirror silvering questions

Post by Keith Pettit »

Hi All,
I recently bought a mirror silvering/gilding kit from Sarah King.
If anybody is contemplating this, I an highly recommend Sarah and the service she offers, she was very patient at answering all my initial questions. If we can sucsessfully do business affordably over "The Pond" anybody can!
I thought I would throw this question over to you Guys rather than continue to plague Sarah.
My worry is this, Silvering and Angel Gilding over Glue Chip. Are there any pit falls? how do you clean these areas with cerium oxide without destroying the polisher? or, as they are chipped is it not so critical? Also the chip isn't the best I have acheived and there are small areas of sandblast still visible, will this cause problems?
There are probably a hundred more dim witted questions I need to ask, they will follow I'm sure!
There is one complaint that I would make about Sarah's Kit and service, if she reads this I think is something she needs to address, my point is this; she mentions in the instructions "managing time so you can concetrate without feeling hurried" well I have seached to the bottom of the parcell several times and read the kit contents list and this does not seem to included anywhere, what good is the instructions if you cannot get hold of all you require?!
Thanks in advance,
Regards,
Keith
Larry White
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Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Angel Gilding over glue chip...

Post by Larry White »

Hi Keith-
Well once you've Angel Gilded over glue chipping, it's hard to want to do it any other way. It's always worked sweet for me! You know how it is leafing over glue chip, typically 2 water gilds, then a surface gild. I can pretty much Angel Gild any size panel in under 2 hours, start to finish. ...and that's cleaning up my mess too! I guess that's where the time comes from, rather than being in the box! :D The process I use is:

1) Soak the glue chipped area with saturated (water) paper towels for about 1/2 an hour.
2) Scrape the swollen excess glue off the glass with a razor blade.
3) Clean throughly with glass cleaner.
4) Clean with Bon Ami.
5) Scrub the glass with ammonia and whiting and rinse with a strong stream of water. Do this process twice, three times if you enjoy it.
6) Rinse with distilled water.
7) Tin and gild per the instructions.

I haven't had any problems using this method. I don't use Cerium Oxide or a polisher. The Angel Gild deposits quite readily in the glue chip. It also deposits in the sandblast areas.
Larry White
That's enough for now... it's gettin' late
Town Of Machine
http://www.walljewelry.com
Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Petit...you tosser...you got the instructions right and are gonna love the results!!! Angel gilding in chips is amazing....One addition however...if you are using aluminum oxide to blast with, give a real good scrubbing with lye in advance that all Lawrence has said. That will keep the silver from tarnishing!...till later Mate....okay another last point...set aside a Saturday or Sunday for that matter, when no-ones arround to bug ya!....okay another (and this is the last addition) warming the contents before use was REAL handy advice...okay (and this is the very last I swear) make sure you mix your chemicals the day before....or at least as long as it takes for them (combined) to go clear(ish)
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Keith,

I just knew I forgot something! You pay the freight and I'll bring a deck chair, a bottle or two of Newcastle Brown and an Agatha Christie and guard your front door for as long as you want.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Keith Pettit
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Post by Keith Pettit »

Thank you all so much.
Larry you have set my mind at ease, you have a knack of demystifing these things, that is a real gift.
Do you not use cerium oxide at all, or just not in the chipped areas?
Doug you are so rude! thanks for the tips, sorry I have not been in touch recently, I wanted to congratulate you on the Signcraft feature,(about time) I don't know where the time is going at the moment, I also was amazed to see how much you have crammed into your life! and Doug lay off all those drugs, nobody would guess your only 21!
And thanks again Sarah. Newcastle Brown eh! I was wheened on that stuff!! its obviously why we got a good understanding going!
All for now, Thanks again,
Regards,
Keith
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Keith,
Cerrium Oxide works wonders when needed, but we typically stayed away from it unless we had other issues. For example, when you clean the glass thoroughly, rinse it and then tin the glass, sometimes you will see a fingerprint sized area on the glass where the tin or water is being repelled. That's a good time to clean the glass again, but give it a quick scrub with the Cerrium Oxide slurry. Then clean and continue.

In an other example, David and Susie Butler bought a bunch of imported beveled glass. When they tried to angel gild it, there were stripes showing up in the gild. Interestingly, the glass had been shipped with pieces of corrugated cardboard as spacers and the stripes matched up with the corrugations. Rick suggested cleaning with Cerrium Oxide first, which did the trick.

Cerrium Oxide residue will certainly cloud or ruin a gild, so when you use it, you have to double up on the cleaning process. When used over glue chipped glass, there is even more of a chance to have left over C.O. residue, so you have to thoroughly scrub the glass with a soft scrub brush and water.

Cerrium Oxide is also used as a polishing compound if you ever need to buff out a scratch using a special felt wheel. I ordered a wheel and the compound from a local glass shop, only to find I now have a half gallon of cerrium oxide. Should last me and anyone I know a lifetime.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

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Larry White
Posts: 1213
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Angel Gilding over Glue Chip...

Post by Larry White »

Image

Hey Keith-
This one was Angel Gild over double glue ghipped glass. After the glass has chipped, the chipped surface is virtually new, uncontaminated glass. You just need to ensure you clean off the remaining bits of glue. But being fresh raw glass, it doesn't require as much cleaning as the rest of the entire surface area of the glass that has been exposed to contamination. ...I was remembering the lye thing too, but see that Doug has mentioned it. Rick recommended liquid drain cleaner. But that's only required if you've blasted your glass with aluminum oxide. I'm typically blasting with silica sand. Like Mike said, watch for "beading" of the water in your final rinse, if it beads, clean some more. Rick would sometimes do a final cleaning with a wet felt chalkboard eraser and powdered pumice. That's what I'll do if the final rinse beads up anywhere. But since I started using the ammonia and whiting, I don't find I have that problem. I don't use the cerium oxide method any more. Did anyone mention to always wear clean gloves during the whole process? ...well, my commrads and I will be doing some Angel Gilding tomorrow... have fun! :D

The Chickering Pianos piece was created from the vector file available on the Letterheads site. Being double glue chipped, the asphaltum method was used. The steps were:

1) Asphaltum varnish entire back of the glass. Extra-clear glass was used.
2) Computer cut vinyl in reverse, weeded (chipped areas) and applied to the glass.
3) Sandblast open areas of mask. Remove mask.
4) Flow glue over sandblasted areas (squeeze bottle method). Allow to dry and chip.
5) Touch up edges of asphaltum that came up with the first chipping.
6) Reflow glue over the first run chipping. Allow to dry and chip again.
7) Clean off excess glue and remove asphaltum varnish.
8 ) Thoroughly clean the glass and Angel Gild it.
9) Back-up Angel Gild except where the letters were to be painted. Strip off unwanted gilded areas.
10) Painted secondary copy with dark japan color.
11) Airbrushed a faded deep brown glaze on "Chickering Pianos". Backed it with surface gilded copper leaf. Backed up the copper leaf.
12) Threw it in a frame I snagged off ebay. ...Done.
Last edited by Larry White on Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Larry White
That's enough for now... it's gettin' late
Town Of Machine
http://www.walljewelry.com
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

The cerium oxide does cloud the gild if you rely only on water pressure to remove it. If you wipe the glass down with a clean sponge, brush or paper towel as you are rinsing, you can get all of it off very easily. I always clean the glass, including the glue chipped areas, with a slurry of hot diluted glass cleaner and cerium oxide and remove it with a clean sponge under running water.

Scientifically speaking, ammonia and whiting do the same thing as cerium oxide and glass cleaner - but less efficiently. Ammonia lifts the grease, but the detergent in the glass cleaner chemically bonds the grease molecules to the water molecules so that they are carried away with the water. The glass cleaner in the Angel Gilding Kit is specifically formulated for cleaning optical instruments.

Like the tin, scientists have not exactly figured out how cerium oxide works, but they think that it has the ability to soften the top molecular layer of the glass so that the abrasives in the oxide can polish it more effectively. Whiting (calcium carbonate) doesn't do this. I figure, if the commercial mirror makers, who mirror thousands of square feet per day, use cerium oxide then they have discovered that its the cheapest and most efficient tool for the job.

Cerium oxide works best if the slurry is about 95 degrees F. and has the consistancy of milk - ie quite thin - not a thick paste. If you use hot glass cleaner, the friction of polishing keeps the cerium oxide at a good temperature range.

What we're doing is chemistry anyway - even gold leaf gilding - so I think it's handy to know the chemical reason for why things work.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Also, besides silica sand, the two popular types of abrasive for etching glass are aluminum oxide and silicon carbide. Of the two, aluminum oxide can leave a residue requiring a lye bath. Knowing that, we opted to purchase silicon carbide abrasive to eliminate that step and potential problem.

If Sarah is suggesting using cerrium oxide, I'd have to consider it a good product and a necessary step. They sell the kits and have worked out the bugs. I find it easier to get tech support on any product if I am using their supplies and following their directions. Otherwise you can be introducing other variables into the scenario and getting reliable tech support becomes tougher.

Back at the Denver 20th Anniversary Letterheads meeting, I was teaching a class on using Gerber's Graphix Advantage. I was trying to do a couple of lessons on using the special effects utility that does the welding and clipping. I told everyone to make a star, a circle and a square...as I demonstrated those shapes on the overhead computer. I instructed them to place the star over the circle and do one of the commands. After a few minutes, I asked how everyone was doing and one guy raised his hands--having problems. When I looked at this screen, he had a triangle, rectangle, and an oval instead of the ones I had instructed. The technique I was demonstrating wouldn't really work (as well) with those shapes. When in a "learning stage" or in a class, I find it better to follow along closely, then play or be creative with the technique later.

Some of us have eliminated some of the original steps on Angel Gilding over the years. In this case, the cerrium oxide wasn't in Rick's original steps for Angel Gilding. He learned of the material later and added the step as he felt necessary to solve a problem or stubborn spot on the glass. I am sure he used it more on some projects than others.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Tosser...okay I lied , another final addition. All the advice "since" is good. Our pal in Torquay also uses amonia and whiting as a cleaning agent. Also cerium comes in different grades and there is some very expensive stuff out there which is used to polish things like telescopic lenses...you don't need that level here....I've had terrific results with Sarah's kit, especially if I do what Michael Jackson suggested... follow instructions to the "T" at first....get creative later. You will use more of the solutions than you predict and be prepared for some experiments...... Cheers Mate D.Bee
Keith Pettit
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Post by Keith Pettit »

Thank you all so much for taking the time to give me your advice.
I will report back with results or more probably problems as soon as I can.
All for now,
Regards,
Keith
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Sarah's method...

Post by Larry White »

Guess I need a new set of instructions from Sarah...

...one thing I've learned, always use fresh tin. And if your supplies have been sitting around for awhile, you might want to get some fresh tin concentrate prior to gilding. :) -LW
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Larry,

The latest and greatest instructions are posted as downloadable pdf files on my web site -- not that there's much I could teach you about Angel Gilding.

Clean glass, good tin, lots of practice - that's it.

!!!!! Except that I just remembered that Susie Butler told me I have a typo in the Silver Instructions, Russ, which may be the source of your troubles. The typo says to add 2 ml of Tin for Silver to 2 ML of Distilled water. It SHOULD BE 2 ml of Tin for Silver to 2 FLUID OUNCES of Distilled Water per square foot of glass - a really huge difference. (30 times too strong!!!) I am so sorry. The label on the bottle is right and the instructions are wrong. I should have fixed this before. !!!!!!!!!

I'll get this fixed today. oooooooops

And yes, if you rinse out the one ounce plastic cups after every session, you can reuse them forever. Rinse with tap and then with distilled and you should be fine.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Russ McMullin
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Post by Russ McMullin »

Sarah, I caught that one out before I started. When 30:1 became 1:1, I knew something was up. No worries.

Here is another attempt from today:
Image

The stripe on the side is a reflection. The dark coiled shape is the blemish I keep seeing. Other than that, the mirror is just fine.

Russ
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

If this piece looks good from the front, you are doing it right. The center of your "topo map" is where you poured your silver onto the tinned glass, working outward. If you watched Rick work, he poured in a circular pattern to quickly cover the surface, vs pouring in one specific spot and letting the silver solution fill outward.

Also, as an experiment, you can mix up a little batch of silver solution that is dilluted by an extra 100% distilled water (vary the amount as needed) and pouring on a quick "primer bath" of silver. When viewing the mirror from the front, your are mainly seeing the first microscopic film of silver. Once your dilluted primer layer is down, pour it off and then pour on the final "regular strength" batch of silver. We used this technique over and over with gold, as suggested by Rick. The idea is to get a quick layer down first. Once the second good gold layer goes down, the minor swirls or clouds in the silver seldom were a problem from the front.

Follow Sarah's instructions for a while, then experiment to get the tweaked results. In the example you show, there is a layer of clear water on the glass just before pouring. When you poured out from the center, the clear water is pushed out in an outward ring until it builds up enough volume to hick-up into the outpouring supply of silver, causing the ring(s)
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Russ McMullin
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Location: Tooele, UT
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Post by Russ McMullin »

Mike, thanks for the tip about diluting the silver on the first layer. I will keep trying different things. My third mirror definitely looks better than the first two. The point you make about not needing wide, flat areas of mirror is well taken. I want to add etching and chipping to my experiments soon, so I may be worrying too much about something that won't matter in the end.

Larry, how was the Chickering Pianos piece done? I love it. Did you use vinyl to mask for the etching/chipping? Is the black of the lettering the black from the backup paint? Did you gild the whole surface and then strip the lettering? Sorry to ask so many questions.

Russ
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Mike,

The pre-gilding or pre-silvering wash helps a lot to smooth out the final deposit.

About the tin - it takes a long time for water to evaporate. When I started out I used to have a big panic about getting the gold or silver down immediately. Then one day - with nothing better to do, I guess - I sat there and just looked at the wet glass. Not much was happening for a very long time. Now I'm very careful to tip off all of the rinse water before I pour the silver or gold. Things go better if the silver doesn't have to duke it out with the rinse water.

I tried silvering on top of perfectly dry tin a couple of times and it worked amazingly well. I'm not sure I would recommend it as a general practice, but it worked. It didn't work with the gold at all.

As you say, what's important is the side you see - the back is going to be painted anyway - except for my experiments with translucent copper. I'm getting pretty excited about those. I'll post it when the final piece is done (if it's any good, that is.)
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Russ McMullin
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Post by Russ McMullin »

I may be leaving too much water before the silver goes on. I do pour the water off first, but I haven't spent a lot of time on it. Should I spend the extra time letting it drip off the corner?
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Yes, let the excess drip off, but don't let it start to dry out.
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Replied to questions

Post by Larry White »

Russ had some questions that I answered in my original post (see above for Chickering Piano steps). -LW
Russ McMullin
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Post by Russ McMullin »

Thanks very much Larry for sharing that. I've got some projects in mind and I need all the info I can get.

Russ
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