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Copper Mirror questions

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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Mike Jackson
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Copper Mirror questions

Post by Mike Jackson »

Sarah, I finally had some time to try out the copper kit. I did two and both worked. I didn't have the table top as level as I should and had a thinner deposit on one end on the first try. The second one worked great.

Just a quick question: I scrubbed the back of the copper with the chamois, but I wasn't sure how long or how aggressively I should rub. There were quite a few tiny dust or powder fine specks, but I didn't seem to know all of them off with the chamois. Can you give a little more detail of this step?

The instructions say to "back up as normal" unless we want a transparent copper. Is there anything special required for backing up copper vs silver vs gold. Rick sold us special silver back up paint, which was reported to have less sulphur than the gold back up. The mirror back up was not as tough, but more water resistant, and was supposed to help eliminate the silver from turning gray. Is there any concern with the copper tarnishing from any of the back up paint options?

Thanks in advance,
Mike Jackson
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Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Mike,

On wiping off the copper I just go in stripes from one end to the other one time. I don't think scrubbing is necessary. All you are trying to do is remove some of the "scum" that seems to form on top of the deposit. The old timers used to do this with silver too - but the newer silver formulas make this step unnecessary. One firm swip with a soping wet chamois should do it. -- I also find that I get more "scum" some days than others - I can't figure out why.

On the back-up paint, I wouldn't worry about the copper tarnishing. I have been trying lots of things to try to make it tarnish on purpose and I'm not having any luck. It seems to be a lot tougher than silver. The Sericol Fast Dry Enamel with a touch of One Shot Hardener seems to be very good. And there is always the old trick of putting down a layer of shellac first if you have doubts about your paint.

I am so glad it worked for you - copper is more subtle than gold and looks terrific next to silver. Are you going to post your masterwork for us?
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Sarah,
I am big on making tests before committing to a real project, so I don't even have a project in mind. The copper kit arrived last week and I just wanted to try it to see how complicated it was and see the finished color. At least on the two pieces I did, the copper piece has a peach cast, but I think that is about the color other people have described to me after they did one or saw one. It is not as deep as a leaf of copper, but it still has a nice quality. Now I just have to figure out how I might use it in a design.

While I had all the stuff out, I did a piece in silver mirror to make sure my chemicals were still good, then did a gold test piece. My gold one came out at least 22k and more like 23k and the silver mirror was fine. I need to clean the streaks off the front of that one tomorrow to really judge it. All three colors worked fine and would make a sellable piece of glass. I am now anxious to try the copper color on a piece of chipped glass.

So now, I have another question for anyone who might know. If I were trying to do parts of a glass piece in copper and part in either gold or silver, which one would be best to do first? ...if even possible at all?

No matter which one is done first, the back up paint or ink is applied and the excess removed. Now you have a piece of glass with a relatively delicate paint layer, and you have several tedious cleanings, and several layers of wet applications of water, distilled water, tin, distilled water, solution of either copper, gold and/or mirror solution, and a good rinse with clear water. Sericol (with hardener) has been recommended, but if it works like Rick's old Fine Gold Back up, it is not too water friendly and will sometimes soften and lift. The silver back up he sold was more water friendly, but not as tough when needing to clean off excess gold with cotton. That makes me think silver would work better with copper because the silver strip requires little or no scrubbing...just silver strip.

Normally, I spend quite a bit of time trying tests to answer a question like the one above, but maybe someone else has already done it for us?

Mike Jackson
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Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Hi Goldie and Sarah....I haven't tried any of the copper yet although have found for the most part everything is just as Sarah describes. So more to the point...... I stumbled on an old post some months ago while you were loading all the old in with the new. There was a post by Scott Rowan about how he (and the shop he worked in) backed up gold and silver projects. I actually have it printed at the shop as a "to try" in the future so will search about tomorrow and bring the info home......and bring the post up-to-date.
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Doug,
I found this in an old post from Scott Rowan:
I use Nazdar's ADE 2 Part Epoxy Screen Ink. It comes in a wide variety of colors or the will match a Pantone color if needed. It can be screen printed or rolled on over a paint mask. When screen printed it air dries in 30 minutes. If rolled it will take a little longer.

I have used this product on clear glass prior to silvering. It withstands cleaning with an orbital Polisher and Bon Ami. It works well for me as I can do all my work on clear glass prior to silvering. It is a good a mirror back up as well.

Good luck,
Scott
Mike
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Post by Sarah King »

Mike,

I don't feel very confident about backing paints at all. I do suggest that you do the copper first, gold second and silver third.

The copper formula contains sodium hydroxide (lye) which will lift just about anything - including vinyl mask as I have just discovered. The silver and gold are much less likely to attack the paint. You would want to do gold second to get the scrubbing out of the way and silver last because a) it goes on top of the gold anyway and b) it deposits easily.

The gold comes off pretty well if you use a little extra fine pumice and water on a cotton ball. Extra fine pumice is one more thing I have in stock that I haven't listed on my web site yet.

Copper comes off beautifully with silver strip but I have found that you need to rinse the silver strip off pretty thoroughly if you want the next layer of tin to stick.

I've also found that you can use vinyl mask for mirroring - I have been having a lot of good results with copper mirror on top of the vinyl. You get a beautiful clean line exactly where you want it. The tin and the Palladium sensitizer don't lift the mask. The copper solutions do but - of course - they only deposit where the glass was tinned and sensitized so if the copper seeps under the mask it doesn't attach to the glass. (!)

You also get beautifully coppered vinyl but it also rubs off easily. Thought I might be onto a whole new thing there - but maybe not.

If you copper mirrored on top of the vinyl mask you would have a LOT less scrubbing to do. I haven't tried mirroring the other metals on top of the vinyl yet - maybe we could hear from people who have.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Hi Sarah and Mike...yes Mike that is the post. Iwouldn't wanna get into a wrestling match with Sarah over this as she has WAY more experience than I...however....from much of the 100yr. old English work I've seen and read about there is a way to paint on the glass BEFORE silvering as they did. They also Angel gilded big time but the multi-acid etched and silvered mirrors are of the finest quality most of us could ever imagine. Now I'm not saying they used Scotts formula by any stretch...I can't imagine that Nazdar was arround then, am just implying a level of excellence in craftsmanship and the "search" for quality and knowledge.
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Post by Sarah King »

Doug,

You are the Master!!!!

I don't know anything about backing paints - that's why I don't feel very confident abot them.

I do know that the sodium hydroxide (lye) in the copper and Galena formulas tends to eat anything in it's path - including most paint. Since the silver and gold mirror solutions don't contain sodium hydroxide, I bet they would deposit perfectly on top of (the right kind) of paint.

I would love to try mixing up any old paint formulas you have, Doug. And you can't scare a stained glass person by talking about lead - it's one of our best things. If lead paint is the answer, then let's learn to use it wisely - or see if aluminum works as a substitute.

If anyone has an old paint formula you would like us to mix up and ship out for testing, let me know. The kind of formula that reads "Add ten drops of clear varnish" won't work unless you know how the varnish was made. If you have a formula or recipe that can be duplicated pass it on. We'll make it up and send it back for a little beta testing.

The search for knowledge ----- that's the story.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
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Post by Keith Pettit »

Sorry to hijack a thread, but I wanted to ask Sarah if she would expand on a point she has made above. You have already told me about the vinyl masks for the gold and silver. You mentioned the excellent results you have had with the copper, my question is this; are the results as good with the silver and gold as you have described here?
Cheers!
Regards,
Keith
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

...as to paints in advance of silvering have never really dug to deep into that other than to mention what I have. There are a few good books about/arround although I've never looked for any formulae...will scratch me noodle a bit more yet. On the lye question....it should have read better if I'd said....a good dose of lye before the usual cleaning as described. Hey...I freely admit to being the worst typist in north america....Petit here is the worst on the other side of the pond! ;=)....Now Sarah...have you ever messed with silver staining?
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Keith,

I really have to do more experiments with the silver and gold over a mask. The ones I've done so far worked except that the deposit was thinner than the copper deposit. I think I need to slow down and maybe do double coats. There is no reason I can think of why it wouldn't work just as well. I'll try it out properly in a day or two and get back to you. At least the silver and gold won't eat the mask adhesive the way copper does.

Doug, I'd love to try silver stain but I haven't. I don't do church windows or painted glass - just Arts and Crafts style windows in houses. I don't even have a kiln.

Have you ever tried the Hanovia Liquid Bright Gold? A mix of powdered gold and lavender oil (and maybe other things) that you paint on the glass and fire in a kiln? Produces a perfect gold mirror that's deep orange when you look through it. Very cool - and pretty expensive. ( $16 for 2 grams?) It's usually used to paint china.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Doug Bernhardt
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Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Sarah...this is first I've heard of it.....and sounds like something VERY cool. I am going to do a test or 3 in the near future of silver satining and will let you know what happens. So far all I have is an "idea" of what temperatures to start at!......very vague.
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Post by Sarah King »

Keith,

I haven't uploaded any photos yet, but I wanted to tell that you can silver and the Angel Gild on top of a vinyl mask perfectly - crisp, clean lines even on the edges and even on very thin lines. The solutions don't seep under and they don't eat the adhesive. They do silver or gild the vinyl. Vinyl is not a perfect dam - as I was hoping - but the nice thing is that you know where the solutions need to be so you can ignore the edges and all that.

The only problem I found is finding the right backing paint and removing the mask before the paint dries so you don't get chipped edges - so the paint can smooth out before it dries. Do NOT use shellac - it will peel the mirror right off the glass when you pull up the mask.

Procedure: Clean and polish the glass for mirroring. Rinse with distilled water and let the glass dry. Apply vinyl and weed. If you think you put too many fingerprints on the bare glass, dip a new paper towel in left-over glass cleaner and swab over the open spaces. Rinse with distilled water and preceed as usual. Stand the finsihed mirror on edge to dry. When it is completely and totally dry and you are sure that you will not be trapping any water under the paint, paint and then peel.

A trick for those who are not into screen printing. Thought I would report results.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Just curious...
A: if you angel gild over a mask, is there any reason you "have to" back it up before peeling?

B: In the same train of thought, can you peel out the gold areas out of a piece of stencil, apply the gold solution, then open some additional areas (precut offset outlines), and apply the silver solution to back up the gold and reveal the silver? Even if this one, is there a need to back up the solution gilding with backup paint. Can you just peel the stencil, leaving the gold and silver, assuming you would then print or outline/backup with paint?

I may have to try that sometime today.

Mike
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Post by Sarah King »

The reason to back up the gold is that it is very delicate - you can wipe it off or scratch it just by touching it.

I tried your idea of gilding, then removing more of the mask and silvering over everything. It doesn't work because you have to tin the newly exposed surfaces and pouring tin over the gold layer caused the gold to go dark as the glass dried - a very interesting effect. but maybe not the one you had in mind. The phrase "Old Gold" definitely comes to mind.

So I think you will have to gild, silver and back up the gold to protect it from the Tin for Silver before you can silver the rest of the design.

If you tried it, I'd love to know if you had the same results.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson »

Okay then, how about gilding and backing up with silver, then peeling new stencil areas, re-tinning with silver tin and silvering again?

Also worth mentioning, you supply a special tin for gold and another one for silver. Rick used to use stannus chloride for both processes, though I know you say yours is better than stannus chloride. For this two step gild/silver, I wonder about using stannus chloride for the quick two step process?

In theory, you could cut and have the extra letter outlines in the mask and after the two step gold/silver process I was asking about, you could peel the offset outline and quickly back up and outline while the mask was still on.

Just thinking out loud.
Mike Jackson
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Post by Sarah King »

I think we would have to try it. The basic question is whether the tin itself tarnishes the silver if you pour it on top. The tarnish is caused, I think, by the stannous chloride - whether it's our pre-mixed variety or Rick's do-it-yourself kind. (Ours is stannous chloride too, just in a more precise, pre-measured concetration.)

I think your last idea - gild, back-up to protect the gold, silver, and then peel and paint the silver and the outlines with the mask still on - could work perfectly. I can't think of any reason why it might not, except for the issue of removing the mask and that's just a matter of being careful.

I'll try the gild, silver, peel, tin, silver sequence tomorrow and let you know. Does tin tarnish raw silver the way it tranishes raw gold - that's the question. Have to see.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
Sarah King
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Post by Sarah King »

Just to follow up, I tried the gild, silver, peel, tin, silver sequence and, unless some sort of tarnish develops later, it worked fine. By topping the gold with a layer of silver before you tin the new glass, you protect the gold without having to paint it. Isn't that nice to know?

The only downside is that silver/ gold combo is very low contrast - very hard to see. So the only thing you have to decide is what effect are you going for? The fun stuff.

I never would have thought of this, Mike, great idea.

Thanks - and Happy Father's Day.

PS For those of you trying this at home, don't forget to rinse well with distilled water after each application.
Sarah King
AngelGilding.com
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Post by Danny Baronian »

The tin will tarnish the back of the silver but does not show through the front. I don't know what will happen over the long term, and obviously, if it's rinsed well will probably eliminate further deterioration.

If you angle gild, followed by silver, remove the mask to re tin the exposed glass, remember that a strong solution of tin will attack the tin that the gold is attached to since the silver sits over the gold, but does not encapsulate it (ie does not seal the edges of the tin/gold/silver combination). The test will be to examine the piece you've done weeks and months from now.

Chemically I don't know what the term is, but a strong tinning solution will re desolve with any previous layers of tin, and in the case of the example, can creep under the gold into tin.
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