Research and Experiments

[Kenneth Henry]

I posted this topic on the Letterville forum and got raked over the coals for doing so. It may have been because of misunderstanding in how I posed the question, but have any of you devoted any time toward research or experimenting with using newer materials? Some examples: Glass is one of the most fragile substrates to work with, and it might seem that the time and craftsmanship that goes into producing works of art on such a substrate is a risky endeavor. Has anyone investigated the possibility of protecting their panels/works by using some of the newer "security films" ?

Have any of you attempted using "alternative materials" such as clear plexi or lexan? If so, what have you found to work....and what won't ?

Sharing knowledge is one way of contributing to the furtherance of this craft. It was strongly suggested to me, by one individual, that artists and craftspeople don't have time to devote to reasearch or experimentation, being too busy in getting their work/projects done. I don't share that belief, and may be wrong, but possibly some of you good folks could express your opinions and thoughts on the value of "investigative research".

Edited to add: Here are some questions that I'm presently doing some experiments on.

1. Can a damar varnish centre be recreated on plexi, using a computer-cut mask and casting resin or doming material ?
2. What sort of masking material would be best to use in such an attempt ?
( I'm trying a heavier gauge of vinyl mask, and the water-based "sign
strip material presently)
3. Can the result be water guilded, and is there a waiting period required so that "outgassing" doesn't become a problem?
4. Can such a plexi panel be angel guilded ?

After I've completed this tiny bit of experimental research, I'll share what appeared to work, and what went wrong. Hopefully some of you can make some suggestions toward correction.

[Danny Baronian]

Kenneth,

firstly, this isn't letterville. Posts that are answered on this forum tend to be to the point and helpful.

I'm always interested in newer materials that will do a better job or provide a nicer effect. If I put time into research or experimenting, it's generally regarding a project for specifice needs. Sometimes I find a solution, sometimes not, but I always learn something if it's no more than undersatanding the limitations of materials. It's knowledge that doesn't come from a book or someone telling you.

If your concerned about breakage, use thicker glass. Can you imagine putting a sheet of plastic over the works of Rembrandt, Glawson, Bernhardt, Weber, Jackson, Hueg and too many others to list? At best, some acrylics are scratch resistant, not scratch proof. Same with security films. If your concerned with breakage, consider tempered glass, though it has limitations too.

The suggestion you were given is wrong. There has been many discussions regarding old sign books on this forum. Choose one or two and find out the effort that was put into their craft over and above of just getting the work done. Work from past and current craftsman are not the result of just doing their job. It that were the case, we'd see more mediocre signs, not less.

Acrylic scratches easily, paint compatibly poses problems, static electricity - watch the paint jump from the brush to a spot you don't want paint, solution gilding possibly, but how will it hold up for a year, 5 years? Cannot achieve the same effects as glass work. Scratch it and the piece in shot. Certain chemicals stain and attack acrylic, some possibly contained in the solution gilding kits.

Take a piece of gloss black acrylic. Scrub with bon ami or whiting and ammonia just as you were going to prep glass. Wipe clean. The result is a series of small abrasions on the surface. That after only one washing. You get the same with clear, just more subtle, like a light fog.

I use glass because it is the best material to do glass work. Acrylic looks and feels like acrylic, and will over time will become brittle and yellow. In some cases it will even craze. Put it in a window getting sunlight and failure happens even faster.

Check this site out for someone that's done a little research:

http://www.goldreverre.com/

Hope this helps.

[Doug Bernhardt]

Kenneth...I have never tried any of the methods you are going to work on as they never were necessary for me. Glass, yes, is fragile but in the last 10 or so years I've had one glass piece broken by accident (a front door) and one by an irrate customer. So...firstly I would examine what I was trying to accomplish and then set about the technique required...it way well be you are worried about nothing. Whatever you decide hope tp see the results here. Dan....although flattered you have put me in with greats and as they say....am not worthy!...(he says blushing)

[Danny Baronian]

Flattery was not my intention, only honesty.

As far as worthy, too many of us have seen your work to consider it otherwise.

Your still in....for now.

What I'd like to know is what prompted the irate customer to break the glass! There's a story that needs telling.

the other DB

[Doug Bernhardt]

Danny B....the irrate client had been banned from the "piano parlour" or pub part of the restaurant and broke a few things amoung which was a glass piece about 2'x4' in the foyer! I had/have a second in the shop which was and is a habit of mine to make especially if there is drilling or nipped edges on it. They called looking for a quote to replace it this time last year although it seems to have been more for the insurance value as they had just recently lost a long lease on the building.

[Kenneth Henry]

Danny and Doug, thanks to both of you for your replies and insight. The reasons for my breakage concerns are because I'm working with a graduating class of students who wish to donate a pub mirror to the student pub at the university here. They've expressed concern about possible damage, since students have been known to get rowdy from time to time. It may well be that glass won't be an acceptable choice for them, and I was investigating "alternatives". Thanks again for your responses.

[Mike Jackson]

Kenneth,
You might want to consider "safety glass". It will have all the features and characteristics of regular plate glass, but will have the thin layer of clear visqueen in the middle. You can still acid etch it and/or do light frosting for basic glue chipping, but if you frost or etch into the plastic, it will be ruined. If someone were to throw a mug at the piece, it will break but all the small pieces will remain held to the plastic. Personally, I'd use safety glass if you have that concern.

Mike

[Mike Jackson]

Speaking of research and experiments:
We bought a 100 lb drum of glue a long time ago. Using the standard water ratios, we kept getting little plinks even in the straight lines. Our glue was pretty aggressive. Rick Glawson had mentioned using drops of glycerin to relax the glue a bit, but he didn't say how much...maybe he didn't even know at the time?

We made up half a dozen piece of 1' square piece of glass with basically just a border and about 10 vertical lines, roughly 1/8" across. As with our old high school science class training, we poured a control piece with the straight glue mix, and then did five more with 5 drops of glycerin per 1 ft. sq. mix, another with 10 drops, another with 15, one with 20, and lastly one with 25 drops. When our experiment was over, we could see small plinks in the control piece, with less in each one. The last couple didn't chip for several days. We found we needed 10 drops per square foot of mix, but the only way we really would have known was to do our OWN experiments. We still use the glue from the same canister, so we still add the drops when pouring with a cut and peel method. We don't need the glycerin for the asphaltum/squirt method.

The batch of glue you own might not need the glycerin. The point here is to suggest how to do an experiment that will benefit you, in your conditions. Certainly, you can gild on plex, but it has drawbacks. Same for most materials. We seldom do complicated tests...simple and fast is better.

Mike Jackson

[Sarah King]

Kenneth,

All the traditional methods stated out as experiments. Who was the first person to pour animal glue on sand blasted glass? What kind of a nutty idea is that?

I have found that Angel Gilding does not work on acrylic and that it does work perfectly on Lexan and PETG. So does silver. As Danny says, these materials scratch very easily so you can't clean them using traditional methods. If the pieces are new and still have their factory applied protective plastic film on then they doen't need cleaning. To overcome their powerful surface tension, you have to pour on lots of tinning solution. You don't make the tin stronger or leave it on longer - you just use more per square foot. Then rinse and proceed as normal.

It was really fun to try this out. If you don't try, you'll never know. If you do find a new thing that works - or doesn't work - let people know - and we will all have learned something new that day.