1915 Fire Engine - Gold Leaf on yellow?

[Kelly Thorson]

This 1915 Reo Speedwagon Fire Truck is about to be repainted. The owner has had it for 20 years and is sure that it was a white fire truck. The fenders in particular appear to be yellow to me and when I wiped it the white came off somewhat like oxidation. There is a lot of gold in the striping, but what is left of the scroll work appears to be silver (aluminum leaf ?) with red size.
Was there some type of yellow primer back then? Would they likely have put gold striping on "marigold" paint? Was silver scroll work common? Silver as a base for coloured glazes?
Any suggestions as to how to document this before they refinish - pictures & tracings? Is there anything (chemical reaction) that could be applied to the scrollwork on the fenders to make the image more visible. Any comments or advice? Reference sources? Thanks.

[Kent Smith]

This is an interesting dilema. I would look under the fenders etc for a sign of the original finish color. Yes metal was often primed with zinc chromate in that era and through the '50's which is chrome yellow. I have seen some units in chrome yellow, aka, school bus yellow. Aluminum leaf would be used with black outlines for scrolls and stripes sometimes bright red, prussian blue, dark chrome green or red oxide would be used in place of the black. I still have a few 1/2" rolls of aluminum that would be used for the stirpes and 5" wide rolls for the scrolls. Shading and toning would be done with asphaltum and pure white highlights. I have seen shading and surface toning in Prussian blue instead of asphaltum over aluminum which seems to enhance the silver color instead of making it look tarnished as asphaltum would. The size would be colored for good contrast so red would be logical on yellow. As to patterns, I would use clear acetate or screen print positive clear, and do the tracings with a fine sharpie. That would give you a good dark copy to make paper patterns from...white paper behind will allow it to show up well. Take good photos both distance and closeups, all around, so that you have a record of placemment of scrolls and stripes etc.

[Kent Smith]

I forgot to say that there is a possibility that the truck was two tone, painted yellow with some parts painted red over the yellow. The red would have gold leaf stripes and scrolls. It is also possible that the truck was done in one color, then later painted another color in enamel which is often somewhat transparent. The stripes and scrolls would have been done over the same area without having to usa a pattern. White trucks are done in gold leaf with dark outlines. Since the truck is so old, it could have been repainted many times. It also may have been sitting outside for a number of years before it was rescued. Remember that some of the early trucks were painted with simple lacquers and enamels which had a life expectancy of 7 to 10 years outdoors and 20 indoors and some trucks had to be redone when they got too close to a fire being fought. Whites oxidize to powder the fastest, followed by reds and blues while chromes in yellow, orange and green last the longest. Looks like a fun project, similar to a "T" we did a few years ago at the meet in Banff.

[Kelly Thorson]

Thanks for taking the time to check this out Kent. Bob is going to pull it out into the yard where I can crawl around underneath it and see things in daylight. It sits in a tight, dark corner right now. It has dozens of companions from the same era, Stedebakers, King 8's, Model T's, Model A's, fascinating to see all the bent laminated wood that has been recreated. This fellow restored a Gypsy Moth a couple of years ago. Flew it for 18 hours and blew the engine. He replaced it and I think the new one got 4 hours on it before quitting last fall. With all the treasures he owns I'm almost scared to get started with him.

I'm starting to think that the truck may have been red, with perhaps a white box - is that likely? Perhaps the red under the aluminum leaf is the actual vehicle colour and has been protected by the metals. We were fascinated by some of the gold stripes that seemed to be a series of dashes with fading lines of gold between, but I thought it was just where the gold overlapped. I'm trying to figure out how that would work with the size though. Was gold leaf made in the same size leafs as it is now or did it come in the size the composite leafs come in? Going back there with some ideas of what was available and done during that time will give me a better idea of what to look for. I told him I'd see what I could find out in terms of paints too, so if you have any comments in that regard, he hopes to have it repainted in the next couple of months to give it lots of time to cure. I know some of the authentic paints took a very long time to cure up.

[Kent Smith]

Sure red and white combination is possible. It is possible that you are seeing the original finish under the leaf too although I think you might detect some tint in the size. Real gold has allways been the same standard size, established by the Egyptians about 1200BC. Rolls vary but usually were in 1/2" increments, skipping some in larger sizes for practicality of sale. There are so many possibilities because there is no standard. Each manufacturer had a set of styles which varied year to year and they all built to the specifications of the department purchasing. I restored a blue fire truck many years ago in a small volunteer department which had gold and palladium stripes and lettering. We only took black and white photos then so I don't even have a record of it but it was striking. You will just have to do the best you can by searching the hidden areas on the truck to figure out what the colors were. Composition was never used on a fire truck in that era (much less variegated or copper) because it turns brown and if the department wanted real leaf, palladium was used instead of aluminum. By the way there are many late 1800's vintage texts which have the same scroll and dingbat shapes as are shown in your photos.

The trucks of that era were painted in enamel, similar to Dupont Dulux Enamel which by the way is an alkyd and cousin to Lettering and Bulliten Enamels and more common to the 1930's and into the '50's. They also could have been painted in Japan colors, then topcoated with a clear lacquer like model T's were done. There were also colored lacquers although they tended to be somewhat transparent and were painted over a primer of the same color range.

[Kelly Thorson]

Thanks again Kent,

I'll be going back with a lot better idea of what to look for now. It should really help.

[Jim Moser]

Kelly,

It certainly looks like the truck was originally yellow with silver colored leaf, although I have never seen an older fire truck that was not red. There may be some areas where two parts are fastened together, for instance where the fenders bolt to the side of the box, that the original paint would be somewhat protected from the elements, and when the truck is disassembled for painting, the original color will be revealed. Also as it is sanded in preparation for painting the layers of paint will be exposed, and you will be able to see if it has been repainted. (kind of like the growth rings on a tree). Some very fine polishing compound may brighten up the paint some to make the scrolls more visible, and if you polish through the leaf in a spot it should reveal the original color. You may also be able to piece together the scrolls by getting part from one fender and part from another.

There is really no reason to paint the truck in "authentic" materials....I would do it in a single stage catalyzed polyurethane....it will not look any different than if it was done in the older type of material.

Have you done any kind of search on fire engine decoration ? There is a guy named Ken Soderbeck http://www-personal.umich.edu/~oats/restore/ who is somewhat of an expert on old fire engines. Bob Bond has also done quite a few. Also there are Firemen's Musters which are competitions between fire departments, and there are usually lots of antique fire trucks brought to these events.

Those are some very nice "three dimensional" scrolls ! It should be a real beauty when you are finished !

Here is another site to check... http://www.spaamfaa.org/

[Kelly Thorson]

I emailed Ken and he kindly replied.
He said that the scroll work appears to be aluminum water transfers from the Palm Bros. and that the gold colour and shading were achieved through glazes screened on top of the aluminum leaf. He also sent along some images from their catalogue which appear to be the same ones.
His guess is that the truck was indeed white judging from the underneath of the fenders.
Thanks to all who helped me out both in front and behind the scenes. This place is amazing!

[Kelly Thorson]

For those of you who may be interested,
I spent about three hours today tracing, measuring, documenting and photographing the decals and striping on the truck. There is well over 100 ft of 3/8" gold striping and 20 decals. There also are a few lovely pin stripe designs.
The scroll ornaments all appear to be waterslide decals from the Palm's collection. The largest is 18" x 3". There are four different decals (possibly 5). I think we'll be looking at getting Ken Soderbeck to reproduce the decals. From the information he gave me the decals were made of aluminum leaf with colored glazes screen printed over top. He reproduces these decals using a "sandwich" of size, gold leaf, screened colored glazes and clear at what is in my opinion a very reasonable rate.
The truck will be painted this fall and we will be doing it next summer, hopefully at the Moose Jaw meet.
The owner was thrilled to find that the original decal method will be the route we will go to reproduce them. Judging from the restoration work he has done in the past, this will be a real beauty when it is done.

[Patrick Mackle]

Kelly,
Thank you for the continueing update. I personally, (and I am sure I'm not alone) am deeply into older vehicles and their restoration. Especially when those assigned dig up all the actual-original tidbits and proceedures. To me its kind of like in the film Farhenhiet 451, where individuals become walking books of knowledge, each being a master of their chosen subject. Sounds like this Ken Soderbeck fellow might come under the title "water slide decals, The Palm's Collection".
Please keep me informed.

[Doug Bernhardt]

I also have enjoyed this thread and will be watching with huge interest.

[Kelly Thorson]

Pat and Doug, I'm glad you are enjoying my learning experience.
Anyone want to have some fun?
Here is a treasure hunt if you have a Palm's Catalogue and feel like playing.
We think we may know which ornament the large round scrolls pictured in my first post are, they were slightly modified to suit the stripers needs. I suspect these others are also directly from the catalogue. The 3" x 18" one on the fender, the 1.5" x 1.5" ones on the splash apron and firewall, and the 3" x 3" ones on the hood have not been identified. I think there may well have been a decal inside the striping on the radiator as well as inside the pin striping on the panel below the gas tank. What do you think?





This wouldn't be near as much fun if everything was intact.

[Doug Bernhardt]

Hi Kelly....at first glance it does look like the "Palms" ornaments and have the catalogue at work. I'll certainly check back in, soon (or as soon as possible) but am off for a couple of weeks on Monday. Good luck with your research but didn't want to seem impolite when I just disappear for a couple of weeks.