Design Fees

[Doug Bernhardt]

I just saw a few things that our buddy Dave Smith referred to in an earlier post how his design fees are such that it encourages the prospective client. Now how exactly does that work? I have a fee built into the sign price and for the most part that is all it takes. Most of this is done for existing clients and rarely worry about getting the job...but every once in a while!

[Mike Jackson]

Doug,
Maybe Dave Smith will elaborate on how he does it?

We've done it on quite a few occasions, and especially when the clients are leary of committing to a large price on something sight unseen. In effect, the final price is still close to the same. Actually, I liked to divide the process some. Initially we would agree that I would design to a target price finished sign. I would do that but then offer at least one more set of prices based on that same sketch where we took the production process even further. Many customers would then spend the extra $300-$500 to get something even better than we had originally talked about.

Also, doing a separate design process gave us a little more time to see if we could "ever" satisfy that client. We've all had a few that we just didn't connect with, and had trouble getting either through the entire process or finding a way out.

When going that route, we still got a deposit for the design, then when they approved the entire process, we asked for additional money to total at least half the project cost. Again, the end effect is basically the same.

Mike Jackson

[DAVE SMITH]

Doug
My approach would be very simalar too . I have come across clients when I had my sign shop that would come in and want a design for there shop and expect to pay at the end of the job just for the sign,you could see they were not interested in paying for designs.For a few years I would give clients designs for free with a price for the sign, next thing some other sign shop was making the sign with my design .That was my own fault! so I decided to pluck up courage and ask for the design fee up front, 9 times out of 10 they would take out there cheque book and pay me the design fee then if all was ok with the design I could carry on to production with half deposit up front .As the sign progressed to being finished I would have ageed from the beginning a second payment of 25% then the final payment after instalation. Sometimes clients would make alterations to the design so extra was charged for design time. Another thing to ponder on also ,if you have designed the sign and been paid for it who owns the copyright? Am I correct in thinking the copyright is still the sign shops and not the customers due to the fact the customer paid only for the design time. Lets say the customer pay's for the design but thinks the price for the sign is to high and can get the sign made cheaper down the rd at another sign shop using your design. Now it get's tricky because he now needs to pay for the copyright also am I right?. I also think it's all about connecting with the person that wants your service, my approach always worked for me ,I never did get into any problems after getting design fees up front.

Dave

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Dave,
I don't know about the fine points of the copyright ownership, but the way we did it made it a moot point.

There were two or three issues I addressed.

First, I treated the entire operation as two completely different assignments. If they paid me to make the designs, they owned them and that part of the deal was done.

Second, camera ready art wasn't included in the design time, only sketches necessary to produce the signs. Camera ready artwork from the sketches was another fee.

Third, we "wanted" to get to produce the sign from our sketch, but if I charged properly for the design, not getting the production project was no huge loss.

In other words, we explained that "someone" has to design the sign project--either us or another design company. Again, the two parts were condidered separately. I didn't lose any sleep if they went to a design company first, then brought us the artwork. At that point, we just priced the production leg.

The main issue is to not design signs for free up front, hoping to get any part of the job.

Mike Jackson

[DAVE SMITH]

Mike. I agree ,that was a mistake I made in my early years of making signs - offering designs for free . Big mistake! Not a nice feeling seeing your design work made by someone else.
I would also treat Camera ready artwork as another part of the job and charge accordingly.

Dave

[Doug Bernhardt]

This is all good advice and as always interesting to see others handle it. It would be good to see to what extent you guys design to. ..and therefore the charges that are related. For me to even price a job I do a quick sketch for myself....and very often thats all the client see's...no copies given.

[DAVE SMITH]

Sounds to me your on a winner with that Doug. You probably don't need to change that winning formula. Just don't hand the sketch over! . I would hate to see one of those magnificent carvings on a pub designed by you and made by someone else.

Dave

[BruceJackson]

Similar to Doug, I usually do a rough sketch of the general concept. For the purpose of getting everyone knowing where it is going and helping me work out a price. Most clients see my other work and are happy to leave the details to me. It gives them enough to see what they're getting and gives me more flexibility to improve the design as it progresses.
If they want more, I'll do it at a seperate cost.

As for copyright:

If you recieve a payment for the design and they award the production of it to a third party, you would have a hard time demanding extra, even though you retain copyright on the design.

Look at it from the clients point of view. They paid for a design to be used in a given situation. You got paid to design it. It's rightfully theirs to use for that purpose.

The only way you can claim further payment for your copyright is if they used the design for some other purpose, say printed matter, or sign work that was outside the scope of your brief. If they want more freedom to use the design, they can negotiate to purchase of the copyright outright or buy the use of it for an additional purpose. That doesn't change the fact that inherrant in the initial design was the purpose for which it was to be used and that was bought and paid for.

Another point: if you were employed by them under contact to supply your time to design for them, they own the copyright on everything you produce.

[Doug Bernhardt]

That this pops back up to the top "Right Now!" is so apropos. Just yesterday I saw a design of mine in the newspaper. Several...about 4 or 5) years ago I did a sign for a local pub. First time I dealt with these folks and actually the last as well. Since that time I have seen a reproduction of that single sign and now it's in the papers. Right now I'm simply shrugging my shoulders but I admit my nose is out of joint. I have never had this issue with a regular client.

[Rick Chavez]

On copyright, just because a client pays for your design time does not mean they own it outright, though it would be harder to prove on your part unless you have a good contract.

You can make stipulations on your design that you can keep all the rights or some of them.

I handle my design work as what the scope of the job was when they came. If it's a logo I will allow them free use of the logo to that business as they needed but I may not allow them to sell the logo as a product or franchise it out (unless that was part of the scope of work contracted)....that would go beyond the original scope of work.

I would imagine one right is that the client can not mass produce that design or make that design into a t-shirt or logo. If you were designing it at a reduced cost knowing you were going to make it, then you can have a buy-out clause to have another shop make it. The idea is that a client comes in for a really nice sign worth 5-10,000 bucks, but then starts plastering the design on cards, letterheads, t-shirts and advertising worth $100,000.00...your design has more worth than originally discussed and you should be compensated for that difference.

You all do beautifull work and it deserves the same protection that a great graphic designer would do. It should allow the client some amount of freedom to use that design, but not infringe on your rights if you did not know the true nature of how the work was being used.

A few books on the subject:

Talent Is Not Enough: Business Secrets For Designers-
http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Not-Enough ... 0321278798

Graphic Artists Guild Handbook: Pricing & Ethical Guidelines-
http://www.amazon.com/Graphic-Artists-G ... 12-9635130

The Creative Business Guide to Running a Graphic Design Business-
http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Business ... 12-9635130

The Savvy Designer's Guide To Success: Ideas and Tactics for a Killer Career-
http://www.amazon.com/Savvy-Designers-G ... F8&s=books


Places on the net with information:

http://www.no-spec.com/
www.gag.org
www.aiga.org -they have a downloadable PDF sample contract that you might get some language out of it for your own contract.