A couple of years ago I did some gilding on a couple of storefront windows in a high-mountian town.
One of the windows is still in good shape however the drop shadows and some outlines are beginning to lift off the glass in the other window. The lifting has not yet reached the gold area but I'm thinking that, similar to the glue on glue-chipping, it will do so soon. Also, there are few small cracks in the matte centers where you can see daylight through the back of the letters.
A couple of the factors which may contribute to this are:
1. Both windows face south and receive direct sun all day.
2. The window that is failing has a dark curtain that is pulled all the time - day & night.
I'm thinking that maybe the extreme temperature swing is the main culprit with the expansion & contraction taking place in a short time. (Hot sun trapped by the dark curtain, sub-zero temperatures at night with the curtain insulating the glass from the room temperature.)
Unfortunately, this is several hours from here and I haven't inspected it myself but have only seen some photos. (I would post a photo but don't have a website yet so just trust me, OK?)
Any other hypotheses about the cause or, more importantly, advice on repairs and prevention?
Thanks,
Dan
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This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.
Window Gilding Failure
Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian
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DAVE SMITH
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Mike Jackson
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Dan,
It sounds like you have evaluated the situation as well as you can. Between the UV rays and the built up heat, it sounds like your work has simply dried past the point of no return. I saw a south facing glass job Noel did in Boise. It had quite a few of the same problems, also hit hard with south summer light and a heated chamber of air behind the glass.
Mike
It sounds like you have evaluated the situation as well as you can. Between the UV rays and the built up heat, it sounds like your work has simply dried past the point of no return. I saw a south facing glass job Noel did in Boise. It had quite a few of the same problems, also hit hard with south summer light and a heated chamber of air behind the glass.
Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
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Doug Bernhardt
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- Location: Ottawa Canada
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I also think you hit the nail on the head and can only add that if they are sweating during the seasons, air conditioning in summer etc. they might be staying too wet. The job I did for the Almonte Candy Co. has suffered that fate. Faces south and was simply streaming with water in winter. I advised the client to put another piece behind it as many others have, done but it never happened. Older windows in similar conditions have done fine with this small addition.
OK, I followed Dave Smith's advice and opened a photobucket account. That's pretty easy. So here are a couple of pictures of the project.
The first one shows the window itself which I did about 2 years ago. (I used Gary Godby's beautiful font - Tyler - available from Letterhead Fonts. Also a nice decorative dingbat from Mike's Americana Collection. Copper leaf on the acanthis flowers on either side.)
The next two show the current state of affairs which they emailed to me.
I think Mike's woeful pronouncement that it is just dried past the point of no return is probably the long & the short of it. I talked with Kent Smith on the phone & he concurs - the radiant baking from behind is pretty hard to overcome.
Doug - I talked to them about condensation because there is a concession stand and popcorn just on the other side of the curtain ("Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!") and I figured that might be part of the problem but they said there is never any condensation on the glass.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas on fixing it, give me some tips on how to unscramble an egg while you're at it.
It's a little discouraging when you try to cover all your bases and then something like this happens.
Thanks for your input.
Dan
The first one shows the window itself which I did about 2 years ago. (I used Gary Godby's beautiful font - Tyler - available from Letterhead Fonts. Also a nice decorative dingbat from Mike's Americana Collection. Copper leaf on the acanthis flowers on either side.)
The next two show the current state of affairs which they emailed to me.
I think Mike's woeful pronouncement that it is just dried past the point of no return is probably the long & the short of it. I talked with Kent Smith on the phone & he concurs - the radiant baking from behind is pretty hard to overcome.
Doug - I talked to them about condensation because there is a concession stand and popcorn just on the other side of the curtain ("Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!") and I figured that might be part of the problem but they said there is never any condensation on the glass.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas on fixing it, give me some tips on how to unscramble an egg while you're at it.
It's a little discouraging when you try to cover all your bases and then something like this happens.
Thanks for your input.
Dan
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Doug Bernhardt
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4cents worth?
well I think thats it...except to say, it was/is a beuatiful job!
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Larry White
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- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am
Hi Dan-
You might want to speak to David Trujillo. I recently took a restoration workshop with him. A lot of the old restorations dealt with problems like that. There maybe a way to reseal the inscription back down, or, a bit harder, remove what is lifting and reapply it with matching colors. I'm sure this project gets even tougher in that they probably want you to fix it on-site and in a vertical position, with the staff looking over your shoulder.
So, how long do you warranty your work for? Perhaps in evaluating a job and it's finished installed position, would dictate the type and length of waranty you would offer. I myself like the tail light warranty.
Nice work...very nice work!
You might want to speak to David Trujillo. I recently took a restoration workshop with him. A lot of the old restorations dealt with problems like that. There maybe a way to reseal the inscription back down, or, a bit harder, remove what is lifting and reapply it with matching colors. I'm sure this project gets even tougher in that they probably want you to fix it on-site and in a vertical position, with the staff looking over your shoulder.
So, how long do you warranty your work for? Perhaps in evaluating a job and it's finished installed position, would dictate the type and length of waranty you would offer. I myself like the tail light warranty.
Nice work...very nice work!
Thanks Larry,
I gave David Trujillo a call and discussed this with him. (Isn't it great to have friends who share our passion and will take their time to hash these things out together.)
Anyway, he was reading to me out of an old book "The Expert Sign Painter" where it talks about the importance of ventilation on windows. It seems that the lack of ventilation combined with the heat build-up and the dry Colorado air all are actors of collusion in this sad drama.
It's possible that I could work WW varnish with some turpentine on the back of the paint and underneath it to get it to soften a bit and re-adhere, but I think the vertical surface could create a bit of a challenge, and I'm not positive that it will work. Plus I can't guarantee that it won't just happen again in a year. He also recommended that I re-do it without the drop shadows, since the gold adheres better than the paint. I tend to think that doing it over might be a better solution than trying to patch it up, but I have to weigh it all.
Larry, your "tailight warranty" made me laugh. Several years ago when I was going to do a window splash - something I didn't have much experience with - I asked Tom Seibert if he had any advice. He said, "When you're driving away, don't look back!"
Of couse, this is a different matter completely as we expect this type of work to last.
Oh well, thanks to everyone for your help. I think I have some things to bring to the table with my client. They are delightful people to work with and I want to be sure that the end result is a win-win situation. I don't really think there was negligence on my part and we can't always cover all our bases but I want to be able to tell people that this is going to last longer than 2 years! I'm a stickler for details.
I hope that other readers of the forum can learn from this as well and forsee ways to prevent similar disasters.
Dan
I gave David Trujillo a call and discussed this with him. (Isn't it great to have friends who share our passion and will take their time to hash these things out together.)
Anyway, he was reading to me out of an old book "The Expert Sign Painter" where it talks about the importance of ventilation on windows. It seems that the lack of ventilation combined with the heat build-up and the dry Colorado air all are actors of collusion in this sad drama.
It's possible that I could work WW varnish with some turpentine on the back of the paint and underneath it to get it to soften a bit and re-adhere, but I think the vertical surface could create a bit of a challenge, and I'm not positive that it will work. Plus I can't guarantee that it won't just happen again in a year. He also recommended that I re-do it without the drop shadows, since the gold adheres better than the paint. I tend to think that doing it over might be a better solution than trying to patch it up, but I have to weigh it all.
Larry, your "tailight warranty" made me laugh. Several years ago when I was going to do a window splash - something I didn't have much experience with - I asked Tom Seibert if he had any advice. He said, "When you're driving away, don't look back!"
Of couse, this is a different matter completely as we expect this type of work to last.
Oh well, thanks to everyone for your help. I think I have some things to bring to the table with my client. They are delightful people to work with and I want to be sure that the end result is a win-win situation. I don't really think there was negligence on my part and we can't always cover all our bases but I want to be able to tell people that this is going to last longer than 2 years! I'm a stickler for details.
I hope that other readers of the forum can learn from this as well and forsee ways to prevent similar disasters.
Dan
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Roderick Treece
- Posts: 1086
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- Location: San deigo Calif
- Contact:
Dan,
Sorry to hear of your misfortune.You would think after all these years we would know all those tricks.If and when you redo it I would say to do it in your shop on a separate piece of glass and they can hang it.
Good luck and keep up the great work !
Roderick
www.customglasssigns.com
Sorry to hear of your misfortune.You would think after all these years we would know all those tricks.If and when you redo it I would say to do it in your shop on a separate piece of glass and they can hang it.
Good luck and keep up the great work !
Roderick
www.customglasssigns.com
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erik winkler
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- Location: Amsterdam Netherlands
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Hello Dan,Dan Seese wrote:I hope that other readers of the forum can learn from this as well and forsee ways to prevent similar disasters.
Dan
A bit late, but I wondered what happened with the window.
It really looked great!
And sure you gave me a good lesson on what to keep in mind when doing a job like this; thanks.
Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
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DAVE SMITH
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- Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:12 am
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I never got to see the finished piece on this thread. Very nice work Dan. I thought about these problems and tend to lean towards abrading the glass like we do when acid etching small factory scenes.
I use polishing powder (cerium oxide) to scuff the surface of the glass for better adhesion of the ashaltum paint ,this also enables the acid to leave a clouded etch but thats another story.
By abrading the surface the paint will adhere much better than just cleaning the glass with Bonami,from experience and testing it seems to work very well and leaves no scratches to the naked eye once water gilded. I do not rule out condensation problems ,this will still occure under poor ventilation I guess. I missed the continuation of this thread so thanks to Erik for pulling it back
Dave
I use polishing powder (cerium oxide) to scuff the surface of the glass for better adhesion of the ashaltum paint ,this also enables the acid to leave a clouded etch but thats another story.
By abrading the surface the paint will adhere much better than just cleaning the glass with Bonami,from experience and testing it seems to work very well and leaves no scratches to the naked eye once water gilded. I do not rule out condensation problems ,this will still occure under poor ventilation I guess. I missed the continuation of this thread so thanks to Erik for pulling it back
Dave
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Larry White
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Mr. Black: There were several tornados in the area - the big one that caused so much devastation was in Windsor which isn't far from us. About halfway between us in Fort Collins and Kent Smith in Greeley. This is more the type of thing you see in the midwest so it was a shock to see it here. But we fared just fine. It's going to take a lot of time to clean up and rebuild. Thanks for asking.
Dave: I actually used an electric palm sander with a slurry of 3 micron alumina powder to abrade the window before doing the work on it. With the high mountains and extreme temperature changes, I wanted to ensure a good bond to the glass. I'm pretty convinced that the problem had to do with the direct sunlight from a southern exposure in a high mountain town - increased UV - combined with the black curtain behind the glass causing the thing to really bake. I have a couple of other windows and transoms in the same building that didn't face the same combination of adverse conditions and they seem to be doing fine.
Kraig Yaseen is a couple of hours from Telluride (whereas I'm about 8 hours) and he went to check it out last year. I think he actually experimented with trying to get things to re-adhere but felt that for the most part it was a lost cause. The last time I talked with the owners they weren't really placing blame on me. At that point there wasn't a decision on what to do but they kind of liked Roderick's advice to do a new sign, if needed, on a separate piece of glass in my shop and hang it in the window.
Erik: Since things were left up in the air I kind of forgot about this. Prompted by your inquiry, I'll send them an email and if I have any more pertinent information I'll pass it along.
Dan
Dave: I actually used an electric palm sander with a slurry of 3 micron alumina powder to abrade the window before doing the work on it. With the high mountains and extreme temperature changes, I wanted to ensure a good bond to the glass. I'm pretty convinced that the problem had to do with the direct sunlight from a southern exposure in a high mountain town - increased UV - combined with the black curtain behind the glass causing the thing to really bake. I have a couple of other windows and transoms in the same building that didn't face the same combination of adverse conditions and they seem to be doing fine.
Kraig Yaseen is a couple of hours from Telluride (whereas I'm about 8 hours) and he went to check it out last year. I think he actually experimented with trying to get things to re-adhere but felt that for the most part it was a lost cause. The last time I talked with the owners they weren't really placing blame on me. At that point there wasn't a decision on what to do but they kind of liked Roderick's advice to do a new sign, if needed, on a separate piece of glass in my shop and hang it in the window.
Erik: Since things were left up in the air I kind of forgot about this. Prompted by your inquiry, I'll send them an email and if I have any more pertinent information I'll pass it along.
Dan
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erik winkler
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- Location: Amsterdam Netherlands
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Dan & Dave,
Because this is all so new for me, i am in bit of shock.
I thought by learning all the info in books, video's and websites; i had it all covered with cleaning and 'abrassing' with the Feldspar mineral in Bon Ami cakes. Haha I even bought some cakes through ebay, they costed me too much, but i had to have it! Even now i am studying and making my own soap made of tallow and the feldspar ingredient, so i never will be out of Bon Ami style soap cake's in the future.
But now you experienced quys tell me that is sometimes (and in mine opinion never, because i do not want to take have measurements in doing quality or adhesion for work that takes so much time and effort) not enough for perfect adhesion on glass.
What is this "3 micron alumina powder" and "polishing powder (cerium oxide)"? And where do I get it and how did you guys found about it? I have always been very much interested in the chemistry of art and pigments, so guys enlighten me please!
I found out that alumina powder and ceriumoxide have an hardness of 6 or more in the scale of Mohs (aluminiumoxide has 9 in the scale of Mohs). For comparison: your fingernail has an hardness of 2,5 and diamond has an hardness of 10 in the scale of Mohs. Glass has somewhat different hardnesses: ranging from 5 to 7 in the scale of Mohs.
So clearly it does scratch the surface of the glass, but how or why does it not show after completion of the job?
Dave, i hope you will teach me this too
Because this is all so new for me, i am in bit of shock.
I thought by learning all the info in books, video's and websites; i had it all covered with cleaning and 'abrassing' with the Feldspar mineral in Bon Ami cakes. Haha I even bought some cakes through ebay, they costed me too much, but i had to have it! Even now i am studying and making my own soap made of tallow and the feldspar ingredient, so i never will be out of Bon Ami style soap cake's in the future.
But now you experienced quys tell me that is sometimes (and in mine opinion never, because i do not want to take have measurements in doing quality or adhesion for work that takes so much time and effort) not enough for perfect adhesion on glass.
What is this "3 micron alumina powder" and "polishing powder (cerium oxide)"? And where do I get it and how did you guys found about it? I have always been very much interested in the chemistry of art and pigments, so guys enlighten me please!
I found out that alumina powder and ceriumoxide have an hardness of 6 or more in the scale of Mohs (aluminiumoxide has 9 in the scale of Mohs). For comparison: your fingernail has an hardness of 2,5 and diamond has an hardness of 10 in the scale of Mohs. Glass has somewhat different hardnesses: ranging from 5 to 7 in the scale of Mohs.
So clearly it does scratch the surface of the glass, but how or why does it not show after completion of the job?
Dave, i hope you will teach me this too
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
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Roderick Treece
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:04 pm
- Location: San deigo Calif
- Contact:
Dan,
Here's some thing I just thought of.Totally unrelated but it might work.
Years ago awhile working on a job with my dad we were doing graphics and signage in a restaurant.One of the signs was to be painted on smooth ceramic tile.The first thing he did was to paint a coat of shellack on the tile.Then he did his lettering with one shot.In the end he encapsulated it with one last coat of shellack.The lettering lasted for years.
This would only work on the non water gilded parts.
Roderick
Here's some thing I just thought of.Totally unrelated but it might work.
Years ago awhile working on a job with my dad we were doing graphics and signage in a restaurant.One of the signs was to be painted on smooth ceramic tile.The first thing he did was to paint a coat of shellack on the tile.Then he did his lettering with one shot.In the end he encapsulated it with one last coat of shellack.The lettering lasted for years.
This would only work on the non water gilded parts.
Roderick
Denver Chapter of the Letterheads