Looking for an MDO alternative

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:28 pm

Does anybody have an alternative to MDO?

I know the answer is YES ! Har Har Har

I just purchased some 3/4 MDO for a cut double sided hanging sign ,got it all primed and painted.The surface is very low quality now.You can see all the grain of the ply and then some.
Not to mension that awhile back I had a total failure with some other MDO stock.

My mission at this point is to find an alternative.

Thanks
Roderick

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:44 pm

Hi Roderick,
Have you tried Alumiply? It's like working with Dibond, but with a beefier plywood core. You still need to seal the edges like you do with MDO, but you have a very smooth face to work with. You can get it two sided or one sided with a plastic backing. I've pretty much switched to Dibond here, but if you need the substance of a heavier panel the Alumiply is the ticket.

Post by **Danny Baronian** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:13 pm

Hi Rod.

Have you considered Medex? I wouldn't use ply core sheet goods for exterior at all, the quality has deteriorated considerably over the years.

I've installed medex signs in Truckee and Lake Tahoe that have been up for 10 - 15 years with no material failure whatsoever. Larry in Baniff has used a fair amount in his signs too unless he's changed material recently. I don't think it'll get more abuse than that.

Another thing about ply, whether for the building trades, signage or furniture, you have to examine every piece you get.
Using a fair quantity of premium ply for trade show work, I'll order 20 - 30 sheets, only to return and exchange half the amount due to de-lamination. Sometimes it's not visible until you cut or route into the panel to find cores that haven't been properly glued up.

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:24 am

Interesting.....
Medex is about the biggest 4 letter word in the sign industry here....it must have something to do with the climate. Extira is really looking promising as an alternative.

Post by **Danny Baronian** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:00 am

Most lumber yards do not even carry Medex yet use the term generically the same as calling all plastic laminates Formica. In fact there are at least 6 or more major laminate manufactures where quality can run from excellent to poor. Same goes for exterior grade mdf.

The only way to insure you purchase real medex is by purchasing from a wholesale sheet good dealer, not a local lumber yard, or place a special order for the specific material.

Check out Larry Whan's work in Banff. Alberta, he's been using medex for years. While our climate may be milder, Truckee and Lake Tahoe are not typical for California, at elevations of up to 9,000' at the ski resorts, it can be extremely harsh on any material during the winter and summer. While Banff's elevation is closer to 7,000 climate at both locations should be comparable.

Product Sign Supply in San Jose, CA sells plywood that has a resin coated face and back, but it may be made specifically for them. The face coating is thick enough that the core doesn't telegraph through the face. Unfortunately, the prices at PSS are considerable more than others, and shipping may be prohibitive. Wether the material will hold up any better, I don't know.

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:23 am

I suppose the performance of all different substrates is reliant on proper prep and finishing.
Here is a link to some information that you may find helpful if you want to give one of the MDFproducts a try.
I received an Extira sample in the mail and soaked it in a bucket for a few days and there was almost no swelling. After drying there was some slight staining, but I liked what I saw. I've never used it but I understand it needs some special prep to work with water borne paints.

vance galliher · Post by **vance galliher** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:00 am

Rod,
I stopped using MDO years ago because of what you stated, and like Kelly, Medex is more than a four letters for exterior work. In the earlier 90's a lot of signmakers here in Oregon thought Medex was the perfect substrate......a local product, easy to tool and shape, smooth face...just round over the edge, coat the edge with a little glue to seal, prime, paint....that's it. The problems started a year or so after being outside. Not with edge problems, but rather sponge-like swelling on the interior surface of the panel. I took many photos of my work and others who experienced the same problems, and an attorney friend suggested we begin a class action lawsuit. I'm talking about thousands of dollars of signs gone bad. We didn't follow through with legal actions, but that's why I stopped using most wood products in my work. Now I use mainly Dibond, metals, and glass.

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:07 am

Alumaply and dibond.What due you use to cut out shapes?Same as wood?What about painting?

Thanks
Roderick

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:15 am

Vance,
Let me know what it's going to take to start the suit.I'm in.

Roderick

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:24 am

We are still using MDO. I'd like to find something similar, but better, but I haven't seen the perfect product yet. We use a table saw or small hand held skil saws to cut it...not sure how well I'd do with a material with an aluminum surface? I also like the rigitidy of the 3/4" material for real estate and construction project 4x8 signs. There are several brands and several levels of quality from each of the manufacturers. Some have a luan mahogany layer just under the top paper layer which helps make it smooth. The cheaper ones, often sold for concrete forms, runs the paper covering over the plywood and football patches.

We also buy the unprimed MDO panels, figuring we'd be having to coat the edges and any new cuts anyway. I trust the Chromatic blockout white much more than the primer they use. We sold our business 12 years ago, and quite a few of our MDO signs are still up, even though many have been replaced with new businesses or new names.

I am watching this post to see what others are using.

Mike Jackson

Kelly Thorson · Post by **Kelly Thorson** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:07 pm

Dibond (pvc core) and Alumiply (plywood core) both are laminated with aluminum faces with a polyester painted finish. You can use both latex and oil based paints on them. For the best results you can scuff the faces with a scotchbrite pad prior to painting. The aluminum faces are thin and you can cut them with normal shop tools (skill saw, table saw) I use a spin saw for more intricate shapes and cut smaller pieces on my scroll saw or band saw.
They are more expensive than MDO, but the labour savings in not having to prep the panels is well worth the extra in my opinion. Guess it depends on what your time is worth.

There are downloadable spec sheets and manufacturing instructions available.
Phone Alcan Composites - 1-800-626-3365 to request info, they have a nice presentation box containing 8x10 samples of all their products, which are very handy to have around to show customers or experiment on. Likewise Omega Board and other companies will be more than happy to send you samples. Check your sign magazines for contact info and spend an hour on the phone or internet to get samples of different products shipped to you. That way you can can actually handle and work with the product to see what works best for your needs.

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:25 pm

After some detective work today I have learned way more than I ever knew about what we think is MDO.Right now I will not be able to alborate but what I would ask of anybody that has had probelms with MDO is this:

1)Please find out where you bought it from.
2)Ask them to find out WHAT MILL it came from theres maybe 5-6
3) When it was produced.
4) What is the print code on the 4' side of the plywood.

Please e-mail me or post it here .

I am looking into it to see if we can figuire out why MDO is having a probelm.

Thanks

Roderick
www.customglasssigns.com

Karen Souza · Post by **Karen Souza** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:40 am

I'd also like to know what others are using for primer & edge filler for MDO (used to use a primer by Sherwin-Williams & body filler, don't even know if they make the primer anymore) - Have a sign project to do for long time customer, otherwise I say NO to signs, especially ones I have to coat backgrounds. (I'm really setup for just doing my trucks). Any info would help.
Thanks
Karen

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:23 pm

Gosh....wouldn't it be great if there was a better product although I have been lucky it seems. The stuff we get always has a good veneer over it before they lay down the "paper" although you can easily see the grain and voids on the back side ,which is clearly marked. I have been using Bondo to seal the edges and so far it seems fine. I do use oil primers over that. It seems a shame we work in an industry that we have to take "good guesses" at these things....10 years down the road we look at a product and say..."guess that worked!" A few...10 or so I'm sure, the reps from an MDO company showed up this way and in a talk they recommended using epoxy to seal the edges before paint...makes way too much sense

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:19 pm

Doug,
I was really convinced about soaking the faces and coating the edges with marine epoxy.Well that went by the way side when, after spending all that time on one sign just to have it crack and peel just like a normal oil based coated sign(after about 3 years).
The one I am finishing up with now has bondo filled edges,oil primer,oil paint finish and as a new added feature a special siliconized asphaltum coating on the edge.We will see how that one go's.

Roderick

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:46 pm

While the original post was asking about an alternative for MDO, it looks like the post has migrated back to how to continue using it. A few people have found an alternative that works for them and their shop set up.

We have been using Red Devil paintable latex caulk for a long time. We just run a bead of it across the edges, then scrape off the excess off the top and bottom using a single edged razor blade. Normally, we do the scraping immediately after applying the caulk so it doesn't start to set up while working on the next panel or two.

Primers and paint sticks to it well, and it sticks well to the edges of the panel. Over an extended period of time, we occasionally see some cracking in the edge finish or topcoat, but the sealer is still protecting the edges.

Hope this helps,
Mike Jackson

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:17 pm

I also noticed that the intent of the posts vis a vis the replies had changed but posted anywho. The silicone caulking is something that I have wondered about and am also using that to supply a barrier between the MDO and applied mouldings. Rod...me thinks the over-application of west system is as big a problem as under applications....and also feel that the simplest solution is often the correct one. Sort of like asphaltum glazes...careful how you use 'em!

Karen Souza · Post by **Karen Souza** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:12 am

Is there a special brand/type of primer you guys prefer - really want to coat these signs w/ 1 Shot (good or bad as it may be).
Seems like I'll stay with the bondo, worked before but alot changes in 10-12 years (That was when I made the last signs for this customer, so I'm really out of the "sign" loop!)
Thanks
Karen

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:17 pm

Karen,

Traditionally I would use bondo to fill the edges,Oil based primer (Frazee or Vista), top coat of enamil, Frazee makes a exterior oil called Aeroplate which works great if you thin it with some type of solvent for drying.I like the idea of useing a caulking on the edges.

Mike,
As you mensioned, the conversation has moved away from the original post.I haven't come up with an alternative to MDO yet.It seams there are quite a few defferent mills around Canada and the USA producing various types of MDO.I feeling it is hit or miss if you get a good product.

The bad product I had trouble with came from ROYAL PLYWOOD in Orange County Calif.They got it from Mckinsey forest product now know as Swanson group.They are not giving me any warranty on the plywood.I will not be buying from them again.

Danny told me about PRODUCT SIGN SUPPY IN San Jose Calif.They carry their own Mdo made just for them.I received a sample and it looks good.When I get up there I am going to stock up on it.

The bottom line for me is this,If a customer doesn't want to pay to put a frame around a plywood sign I will not garranty it,at all!

Roderick

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:36 pm

Karen...it's a shame you're NOT doing more signs. Such a talented crafts(man/person)..and wish I could see more of your work, but here's the process(es) I use from start to finish which have worked for me. Making sure I have the right surface up....either seal edges with Bondo or West System. With Bondo...sand or with west system use a scotch bright pad to get the blush off. You'll see with the epoxy that there seems to be a semi-gloss with a waxy feel, thats not what we want and the bright pads take care of that. From there 2 coats of oil primer sanding in between...Para is what I have but there are many just as good.....a coat of enamel bulletin colour and with the scotch bright pad I again scuff the surface before all the colours are applied. If i was to just letter red on white there would be 2 coats of the enamel first with no last scuffing at the end, but most everything (if not all) I do is heavily decorated and the solid colours go on as mentioned. There of course is a solid colour oil stain on the back (Para again as it dries overnight)...and at the end I apply 2 coats of ClearStar from star coatings and then size and gild. With the new acrylic top coats they seem to have a bit of silicone in them so I do add a drop or 2 of smooothie to help out (that took awhile to work out thanx to this bull board). Also I have a mixture of Penetrol and regular paint thinners that I use to thin the paints and sizes rather than just straight paint thinner...or as we call it here in C eh..N eh..D eh...varsol. Now not to go too off the topic here but more to the starting point....there is a product I saw in the last few weeks called "Miaboard" which looks to be a very VERY high density HDU. For someone like me that machines and carves heavily this could be the answer to the dust problems associated with HDU as we know it. More to come on that but I'll do a job in the next few months with it and see what happens. There's also a small sample in my shop which I have carved (and loved) that I'll do a test on in the next few weeks....sink it into a bucket of water and check the weight in a month or so. I hate to mention this but since it is in line with where we are all at here I thought it was appropriate. Again I'll post results as I know them. Bon Chance Mon Cherie!! Rod....looks like you found a good supplier. What more can be said? and hope the product is as good as we get here from the mills!!

Karen Souza · Post by **Karen Souza** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:19 am

Thanks guys for all the info......hopefully the yard I buy from gets a good batch of MDO!
Karen

Post by **Danny Baronian** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:44 pm

Karen,

don't hope the lumberyard gets a good batch of MDO, call and ask what mill it comes from, and post the names on the forum, or email me directly. Start out with good material or be prepared to replace it in short order.

If you have several lumberyards in your area, give them a call, ask for contractor sales and ask what mill produces the product you want. Material from a known source will better your chances of a trouble free product.

Danny

Karen Souza · Post by **Karen Souza** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:57 pm

Thanks Danny, I'll do just that!
Karen

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:07 pm

Karen,
This may help you a little more.You want to ask for 2 step MDO.This means that they make the ply core ,then they put the veneer on,sand it and then they impregnate the face with resin and paper.The lastest batch I bought was 2 step and the faces where still pretty bad.I did receive a sample from PRODUCT SIGN SUPPY and it looks smooth but you can still see grain.

Look at the 4' foot side for the mill code.
It will look like this.

MDO G2S BB G1 EXT APA 471 PSI 95 Don't buy it if it say's 471
G2s+= good 2 side
EXT=Exterior
APA= american ply assco.
471= mill #
pSI=grade rule
95=year rule was adoped

Roderick

Looking for an MDO alternative

Looking for an MDO alternative

mdo..medex