Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum!
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.
Gold leaf sign
Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian
-
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:38 pm
- Location: Nebraska
Gold leaf sign
I am curious about a listing on ebay that pictures an F. W. Woolworth glass sign identifying a store's entrance. It is listed as turn of the century glass gold leaf sign. I am wondering about the word "ENTRANCE" which is done in Optima font. Optima was created in the l950's. Any thoughts?
Bob
Bob
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
- Location: Jackson Hole, WY
- Contact:
http://i9.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/be/f2/4fb3_1.JPG
Bob,
I think it is a bogus sign. Actually, there is another one just like it on ebay right now. I don't think the old craftsmen would have lettered and spaced it so poorly. The Century letterstyle is not really accurate to the old signs I found while searching for F.W. Woolworths, much less the optima font used on the bottom.
Buyer beware!
Mike Jackson
EDIT: I created a link to the lady's image earlier, which made the image show up here. I heard second hand that the lady is furious that I stole her photo, which I didn't. I only included a link to her photo. I just took off the code that makes it show up here, but you can click the link and still view it. I don't believe creating a link to a photo is illegal anywhere on the Internet. Still, I think the sign is a fake. But, that's only one person's opinion.
Bob,
I think it is a bogus sign. Actually, there is another one just like it on ebay right now. I don't think the old craftsmen would have lettered and spaced it so poorly. The Century letterstyle is not really accurate to the old signs I found while searching for F.W. Woolworths, much less the optima font used on the bottom.
Buyer beware!
Mike Jackson
EDIT: I created a link to the lady's image earlier, which made the image show up here. I heard second hand that the lady is furious that I stole her photo, which I didn't. I only included a link to her photo. I just took off the code that makes it show up here, but you can click the link and still view it. I don't believe creating a link to a photo is illegal anywhere on the Internet. Still, I think the sign is a fake. But, that's only one person's opinion.
Last edited by Mike Jackson on Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
-
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:21 am
- Location: Monrovia, Ca.
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 1:32 pm
- Location: Ireland
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 165
- Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:03 am
- Location: West Sussex.England
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 1:32 pm
- Location: Ireland
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 1077
- Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: Ottawa Canada
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:19 am
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
- Location: Jackson Hole, WY
- Contact:
I just checked and the auction ended at $220 for the sign and frame.
While I don't think this is a vintage sign, it may have been sold to that eBay dealer as a vintage piece. And, there is a "possibility" that some Woolworth's store had a sign maker produce the sign for one or their entrances at some point in the past 20 years. It "could" have actually come from a Woolworth's store. The fact there were two showing up at the same time on eBay adds some more questions. How many Entrances does a typical Woolworth's store have?
It looks like it was layed out with an old Signmaker 4B.
Mike Jackson
While I don't think this is a vintage sign, it may have been sold to that eBay dealer as a vintage piece. And, there is a "possibility" that some Woolworth's store had a sign maker produce the sign for one or their entrances at some point in the past 20 years. It "could" have actually come from a Woolworth's store. The fact there were two showing up at the same time on eBay adds some more questions. How many Entrances does a typical Woolworth's store have?
It looks like it was layed out with an old Signmaker 4B.
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
-
- Posts: 1077
- Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:29 am
- Location: Ottawa Canada
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 123
- Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:38 pm
- Location: Nebraska
Gold Sign
Thanks for the informed input regarding the Woolworth glass sign. It is also interesting that the same piece went last week for over $400 and the seller noted that they would only accept money order as payment and there would be NO return privileges. Ouch.
Bob
Bob
-
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 10:21 am
- Location: Monrovia, Ca.
- Contact:
I would love to do a test on the paint for lead residue or simply press the tip of an Exacto knife hard into the edge paint and watch closely whether it breaks bond or indents, indicating its freshness. As Mike said, I suspected they may have been produced in the sixties, or maybe even six days ago. They're missing that special look of early work.
Pat
Pat
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
- Location: Jackson Hole, WY
- Contact:
Pat,
The old Signmaker 4 came out in about 1982 or so. That was the first plotter/cutter. I don't think Gerber came out with Optima for a while past that, so I doubt the sign is any older than 1984, and possibly a lot more recent than that. Woolworths changed their logo quite a few times over the past century. The Century Bold style used in the job is fairly close to the old lettering, but not quite dead-on.
Mike Jackson
The old Signmaker 4 came out in about 1982 or so. That was the first plotter/cutter. I don't think Gerber came out with Optima for a while past that, so I doubt the sign is any older than 1984, and possibly a lot more recent than that. Woolworths changed their logo quite a few times over the past century. The Century Bold style used in the job is fairly close to the old lettering, but not quite dead-on.
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
-
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
- Location: Estes Park, CO
- Contact:
FWW
Just to add, I have in my archives somewhere a pounce pattern for the transom entrance signs. Each principle store had at least two front entrances (double doors at about 7' wide) and one side entrance near the lunch counter (single door) and mostly a corner location. Some small town Woolworth's were smaller. This sign is only barely similar to the side entrance, if memory serves me correcty. The gold was two tone with a black outline and the background was stippled deep Alizaron Crimson red which is similar to carmine. The lettering was similar to Clarendon for FWW though more rounded into the serifs. Entrance was old style hand lettered thick and thin. We did a bunch of these in the late 50's into the '60's all over Colorado, mostly replacing broken originals, patterns taken from those I guess because I don't think Dad did originals. Too bad someone paid good money for fakes. While these may have been in an actual store, I doubt it since they all closed 10 years ago and were wanning for at least 10 before that. I agree with Mike that the layout is right out of Gerber although it might be from an early software version which still looked like a 4a cut it out from onboard fonts. Optima came with my 4b whenever that was, but not with my 4a.
-
- Posts: 1086
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:04 pm
- Location: San deigo Calif
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:28 pm
- Location: Colorado
Gold leaf sign
I just did an eBay search for "woolworth sign" and came up with this little glue chipped jewel.
http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-general-country ... dZViewItem
It's interesting to note in the item description, the reference to other "questionable" Woolworth and Coca-Cola signage.
Also, under the same search came up some old 2-sided screen printed lunch counter cards that really take me back. These could be reproductions as well. Hard to tell without having them in your hands.
http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-general-country ... dZViewItem
It's interesting to note in the item description, the reference to other "questionable" Woolworth and Coca-Cola signage.
Also, under the same search came up some old 2-sided screen printed lunch counter cards that really take me back. These could be reproductions as well. Hard to tell without having them in your hands.
Keep your stick on the ice!
-
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:28 pm
- Location: Colorado
Sorry about the URL link I pasted earlier. Can't control my cursor.
It should be:
Woolworth 5 Cent Counter
Bruce Horton
It should be:
Woolworth 5 Cent Counter
Bruce Horton
Keep your stick on the ice!
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
- Location: Jackson Hole, WY
- Contact:
That one might really be a vintage piece...maybe even a Rawson and Evans piece.
Mike Jackson
PS, if you ever mess up a link, you can go back in and EDIT that post without having to make a new one.
Mike Jackson
PS, if you ever mess up a link, you can go back in and EDIT that post without having to make a new one.
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
-
- Posts: 569
- Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
- Location: Estes Park, CO
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:28 pm
- Location: Colorado
-
- Posts: 1213
- Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am
-
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:19 am
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1705
- Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
- Location: Jackson Hole, WY
- Contact:
It's the same seller with the same photos. EITHER, they sold the first one and got it back, the buyer never paid and they are re-selling it, OR they somehow have a supply of those "rare, vintage" signs to sell. If it happens to be the latter, I wonder what the odds are that they could take the exact same shot of two different signs about a month apart?
BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!
Mike Jackson
BUYER BEWARE!!!!!!!!
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY
Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
-
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:19 am
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 638
- Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:16 am
- Contact:
Well, for kicks I sent a message to the seller through ebay's ask seller a question.
I asked what the actual age of the sign was and if they had a quantity of the Woolworth signs, would they consider a discounted price for the lot.
Never received a reply.
Either they found a pile of them that had been made up or they had the local vinyl shop make up a quantity. Signs are estimated to be worth between $ 1,600 - 2,100, and that doesn't include the buyers premium that's added on. Anyone want's one at those prices, give me a call; no hidden costs, no buyers premium.
Between GoAntiques and ebay, they don't seem the least bit concerned about fraud.
Photo's the same. They use the same one for the whole stack!
Danny
I asked what the actual age of the sign was and if they had a quantity of the Woolworth signs, would they consider a discounted price for the lot.
Never received a reply.
Either they found a pile of them that had been made up or they had the local vinyl shop make up a quantity. Signs are estimated to be worth between $ 1,600 - 2,100, and that doesn't include the buyers premium that's added on. Anyone want's one at those prices, give me a call; no hidden costs, no buyers premium.
Between GoAntiques and ebay, they don't seem the least bit concerned about fraud.
Photo's the same. They use the same one for the whole stack!
Danny