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beginner questions: gold on glass

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Scooter Marriner
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:51 pm
Location: Oakland, Califoria
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beginner questions: gold on glass

Post by Scooter Marriner »

So, I've read through a bunch of old posts here (not all of them, yet), and read Kent Smith's excellent book, and I've finished my first gold lettering job and I have a few questions.

The job was 7 words, 3" high on four storefront windows. I used paint mask to put down a black outline first (1-shot with some hardener); W&B 23k glass gold; backed up with Purcell's Backup Ochre. (Of course my first time at bat wasn't in the shop, it was on a job... and I made a bunch of errors, but even my crappy gold job looks pretty good.)

1. the cotton wadding was scratching the first gild when I was cleaning it up. (I had waited about an hour, and it was a warm, clear day, 60 percent humidity.) I switched to a gilders mop brush and that worked better. Was I doing something wrong with the cotton?

2. When backing up, the brush scratched the gold in a few places. It wasn't the best quality brush, and I'm switching to a better one from now on, but is there anything else I should know?

3. Since it was my first time, I waited an hour between the 1st and 2nd gild, and 45 minutes before backing up. Is that about right, or was I waiting longer than I needed to? (does waiting longer make it easier, or am I just wasting time?) The gold "looked shiny" after about 30 minutes.

4. What's an appropriate price for a job like that, or how would you figure the estimate? It was my first time, so I was really slow, and it took me the better part of 6 hours. I chalk it up to learning, so I'm not worried, but I want to be able to price "fairly".
--- . -- Still a beginner
Billy Pickett
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:59 am

Post by Billy Pickett »

...Scooter, I strongly recommend that you start out by getting familiar with the process by making test pieces in your shop. Traditionally, a sign person was 'required' to be a quite proficient hand letterer BEFORE becoming a glass gilder.
...On door transom numbers, I charge appx. $300 for four 3-4" numbers in plain (burnish) gild w. a black OL.
Kent Smith
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Location: Estes Park, CO
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glass gilding

Post by Kent Smith »

Sounds like you approched the job organized and with the right idea. I would have used the back up black instead of 1Shot for the outlines for less contamination issues with the gild.

1) was it scratching all the way through and perceptable after backing? when looking through the gold, it is possible to see a scrach or two from rubbing down but it should not be excessive or show through. check your cotton for contamination or little hard pieces of the cotton. rub your cotton on your palm to gather a little natural oil and smooth it out first. you can also rub the cotton on the rouge paper of the gold books to pickup some rouge which helps too. if you fully sized for the second gild then it should be tougher for rubbing but your size might have been slightly week. you also will find what looks like scratches if you gold dried with winkles, common with beginners, and when these are wiped away, appear to be a scratch. this happens more often when you put the outlines in first as the size does not want to flow to the edges as well. a final hot wash can help with this issue. practice some of this at home to determine the issues so that the next time on the job will be better.

2) buy the best tools for gilding as they pay off in time saved and a superior finished job. see 1) for the scratches.

3)since there can be small areas that are still wet and hard to see especially next to the outlines, until you gain more experience, waiting is more prudent. 30 minutes probably would be enough but ....

4) 4 to 6 hours is not terrible for 4 inscriptions. I don't like to rush this type of work so that the finished product is superior. with a least an hour of prep time in the shop, add for driving, materials and the 6 hours at a reasonable shop rate and you have a fair "fare" price. certainly gold leaf is worth more than a vinyl inscription and you should be compensated for your time but you also don't want to gouge your customer or charge so high that you will never get enough gold work to justify having leared to do it.
Scooter Marriner
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:51 pm
Location: Oakland, Califoria
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Post by Scooter Marriner »

Thanks Kent,

1. The cotton I got looks like a mass of cotton thread, and i think it was scratching all the way through. I could see light coming through. I didn't have the same problem when I switched to the brush (its a 3/4" thick tapered mop-like brush that I got from one of the gold places in NY). That's why I thought maybe the problem was the cotton (or my use of the cotton) and not the gild's adhesion. I didn't have any problems near the edges of the letters (where the 1-shot was). I'd put the outlines on last week, so they were fully cured, and I washed everything with BonAmi before proceeding with the gold. I'll get some backup black to use for the outlines for the next job. (there always seems to be something new to buy...)

2. The brush was from Dick Blick and I didn't realize it was inferior until I started painting with it... its now a poster brush, because i think it is only suitable for butcherpaper and coroplast.

3. what do people do while waiting for the various steps to dry? go out and drum up work? do you plan your day to include lunch between the steps? and do you need less time after the second gild/wash than for the first?

(the only part i didn't find in the text was about when to know that the gild is dry enough for one to proceed.)
--- . -- Still a beginner
Kent Smith
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
Location: Estes Park, CO
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glass

Post by Kent Smith »

You need cotton that is more like batting or cotton balls, it is more padded and less thread like. A gilder's mop works fine for most work but I actually lkie to rub a little harder to clear the laps for the second gild. (Figure 2.20) Sounds like the rest worked well.

Plan food, sales calls, etc. or I take the laptop and work on designs for the next jobs or bids. I also like to read, anything to keep me occupied so I don't rub too soon.

A top quality brown quill works best on gold. Sounds like you have what the old wall dogs called an "up on the roof" brush which is where they (we) threw the bad ones, instead of down to fall on passers-by. Not worth fighting a brush that does not work right as you are more valuable than they are.

There is no exact time to wait, just until all the moisture cloud is gone. (page 27, Rubbing Down the Gild)
Dennis Davis
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:07 am
Location: Boise, Idaho

Cotton Roll

Post by Dennis Davis »

Scooter,

Here in Boise we have a farm supply store called D & B Supply. In their veterinary supply section, they sell JorVet 1lb rolls of cotton batting. Noel Weber told me about this place so I felt it was a good lead. The product ID is J197 with a company name of Jorgensen Laboratories in Loveland, Colorado. Email for info is info@jorvet.com or product information at 1-800-525-5614. I would imagine that any good veterinary supply store in your area would carry this product. Maybe Larry will chime in on where his supplier is located.

Dennis Davis
Boise, Idaho
Dennis Davis
Boise, Idaho
Kent Smith
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
Location: Estes Park, CO
Contact:

cotton

Post by Kent Smith »

Thanks Dennis, I did not know that Jorgensen was still making cotton batting but that is the type you want to use. They are only 10 miles away so I will have to check with them for a local source. I have always used the real cotton Mountain Mist brand quilting batting which I get at JoAnn's fabrics here but be careful, some batting is blended with polyester which is even more thready.
Dennis Davis
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:07 am
Location: Boise, Idaho

Cotton Roll

Post by Dennis Davis »

Kent,

The address on the package for Jorgensen Laboratories is 1450 N. Van Buren Avenue, Loveland, CO. 80538. I bought a couple of rolls about a year ago so I hope this information still holds true.

Dennis
Dennis Davis
Boise, Idaho
Kent Smith
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
Location: Estes Park, CO
Contact:

Post by Kent Smith »

Thanks Dennis, I checked their website and they appear to still have the same stuff. I have a door to letter near them so I will go by to see what is available. I have plenty of stock of Mountain Mist as I bought out the stock of a closing wholesaler but having good sources for students is impportant.
Scooter Marriner
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:51 pm
Location: Oakland, Califoria
Contact:

Post by Scooter Marriner »

Thanks all. My second job (on Friday) went better than the first (on Thursday). This time I let the first gild dry almost 90 minutes. I started out too late in the day and only managed to get it backed up, but not cleaned off. I'm hoping it wont be too much of a nightmare on Monday morning...

i'm learning.

test panels in the shop is a great idea. i'll remember that for the next time I learn to gild glass.
--- . -- Still a beginner
Billy Pickett
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:59 am

Post by Billy Pickett »

... Yo Scooter, the mask thing is a fine method for glass gilding too. It can be an appropriate 'short cut' for some jobs, and for those who prefer plotting to using a brush. Chris Lovelady (of Talahassee, FL) covered his technique in Signcraft awhile back. (I don't remember when though, anybody?) He was getting what looked like terriffic results.
Kent Smith
Posts: 569
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 pm
Location: Estes Park, CO
Contact:

Post by Kent Smith »

When you clean up that many days later, use very little water, more BonAmi. It is better to clean up soon after the backup paint dries while it is still elastic so be careful when it has been a few days. It is also helpful to pull your mask for the outlines as soon as possible so that the paint will round over instead of leaving a hard ridge. The gold will lay over the rounded edge better and the water size will flow better too and not crawl away as easily. As I have said before, using tools that get the job done with less effort is always valuable to you and the bottom line.
Scooter Marriner
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:51 pm
Location: Oakland, Califoria
Contact:

Post by Scooter Marriner »

thanks Kent,
I removed the mask right after the paint went on, so that's not an issue. I'll have to trust in bonami for the rest.
--- . -- Still a beginner
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