Film Positives

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:40 pm

How are other people handling this. I have done my drawings and digitized in illustrator some black and white art (although it is in CMYK) and am now trying to get it printed on mylar or acetate. What a pile of trouble this has been. It seems most high end, printing/ photocopy shops need a TIFF. That bitmaps and gives me a halftone which can't work in the vacuum table. Found that part out after an hour wait and a $50 bill.

Jerry Berg · Post by **Jerry Berg** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:12 pm

Doug,

Are you trying to create half tones or just black & white film positives? I'm assuming you using this for a screen. For just black and white film positives you can buy clear acetate, or anything clear for that matter, cut out your file you've created on your plotter out of black vinyl. Then apply the vinyl to your clear. Also, I've bought clear acetate and run it thru my copy machine, copying a paper copy that was printed from my computer printer. This gave me half tones. I used these procedures for creating a screen for screen printing using a photo emulsion on the screen.

For screen printing back up enamel on glass I've used an intermediate performance vinyl reverse cut applied to the back side of the screen. Gets it done real quick. I've printed up to 24 t-shirts as well using this method before the ink started dissolving the vinyl adhesive. Clean up is quick and there is no stencil to remove. For an image I want permanent I use photo emulsion of couse.

Maybe you could try designing in RGB instead of CYMK. From responses people gave on another forum to my surprise, most are designing in RGB. When those files are used in various ways they say the color is richer and more saturated. Maybe this would make your black more "black" and less transparent?

Good luck, Jerry

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:32 pm

Jerry, you are WAAAAYYYY ahead of me. I'm an old tyme signpainter and there is almost no technology in the shop. Anything other than a hand-cut mask, is a stranger round these parts. What I have managed over the past few months is a good understanding of Illustrator and "the workings there-of" What seems to be missing is the "good solid Black on Clear" with rubyliths common in the past! The work is too fine to cut by hand (I hope) and in the past I just painted it in one shot on card and transfered it to a film positive for screening. It seems this is another thing of the past. After doing a re-read, I'm just looking for an easy way to have black and clear.

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:14 pm

If you have a shop nearby which has a Gerber Edge, they can print black on clear "Edge Positive" material and it works perfectly for burning screens. I use it all the time. I could print for you but it might be a bit bothersome to get them to you.

Jerry Berg · Post by **Jerry Berg** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:57 pm

Doug,

I know where you're coming from. I did it the way you described for years myself, thats the way it was done. Although I do prefer using a brush I do have a plotter and it has made certain things easier. I hear my program is quite outdated though. I think Kent has the right idea - find someone close by that can take your AI file and print it on clear for you. By the way Doug, I think your work is outstanding. I also got to see your shop on the youtube there. Looks like a very nice place to work.

DAVE SMITH · Post by **DAVE SMITH** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:55 am

Doug.
When making my line work for screens I use my Omega Programe and then convert into illustrator as you know. I then save the file using cmyk but just the black only, the black is then saturated enough for line work. You then need to contact a repro graphics house they would have the facilities to make you a clear acetate . All you do is email them the file they then will expose it on an image setter graphics art film for plate making,have them expose the art in reverse for better contact to your screen when you expose it, any text fonts etc save as outlines. Once complete they just post it to you. it's so sharp once printed.
Kent mentioned the gerber edge for out putting, I found this way much to Jagged, the lines were fine but curves were very jagged in places- there may be a setting to change them within Omega .Do you have any problems with uneaven lines Kent using the edge?
Dave

Roderick Treece · Post by **Roderick Treece** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:41 pm

Hi Doug,
The guy I bought my house from is a screen printer.He prints his positive on high quality bond paper with a high resolution printer in black.Then he put baby oil on the paper turning it almost clear.Then he uses that to expose his screens.I have never tried it but I am told it works great.

Roderick

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 pm

Dave,
We use(d) our Edge to make very fine film positives. The edge quality of straights, diagonals, and rounded shapes printed on and Edge film positive is far superior to the screens themselves. That would make me wonder if the jaggies you were seeing in a finished screen wasn't caused by the mesh of the screen? Other than the size limitations, I'd give it a strong thumbs up.

Doug, I know you don't have a plotter, but the other option I don't believe prior posters didn't mention is a rubylith. You cut with the blade, then peel off the clear parts...same as we did long ago.

Mike Jackson

DAVE SMITH · Post by **DAVE SMITH** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:01 am

Mike.
When I had the artwork printed the curves were very jagged on the film itself, I had it made again the way I described so maybe there was problems with the printer.
Not having the equipment in house prevents me from this process.
I also have used the rubylith idea and black vinyl cut in reverse and stuck down which give excellent results.
Dave

Post by **Mike Jackson** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:48 am

Dave,
It sounds like the person's edge was not set up correctly. My images come out absolutely clean and smooth.

Mike Jackson

DAVE SMITH · Post by **DAVE SMITH** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:30 pm

Mike looking back I think that is what the problem was.
may now try that process in the future.

Thanks
Dave

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:24 am

Thanx for the responses all and so quick also Jerry. Basically this was the first time doing things this way and was working on a project piece for a small meet that was near here. It has been and gone, but to the matters re films, the edge will print too small for many of the needs I have coming soon and the graphics house didn't print it dark enuf. They actually don't have any eps. ability. So they converted to a tiff and printed from that.....or rather I converted and didn't get the black correct. I need someone near here that can work from an eps. file. This all took several days which at the time I didn't have as I had no idea I would run into problems with something so seemingly easy. I'll repost something about this as I get the works down.....so more soon and thanx!

Kent Smith · Post by **Kent Smith** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:14 am

I have had the experience Dave mentioned with artwork which was not a good vector file with bezior curves. Everything Mike said is true of course and I have been using the Edge for 15 years for this purpose. I would defer to his superior Edge expertise though. Doug, I am not sure what you mean about size? Edge prints using standard black have been dark enough or there is a newer intense black if needed. I have also found using Spectratone black over black gives a really solid black.

Doug Bernhardt · Post by **Doug Bernhardt** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:59 pm

Hi Kent..........I was only speaking of dimensions. I have a real project.....you know a "paying" job coming in a week or so and will have to get this sorted soon. More to come.

John Studden · Post by **John Studden** » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:14 pm

I have been using Edge Positives for years, never had a problem with jagged lines, that is usually more to do with the mesh of the screen, I always use around 180-200 mesh. As far as density of the black goes I always print it twice using left justify on the machine, & in reverse so the printed image is up against the film while being exposed, works great, never had a problem......I know Noel uses the same methods.