Hydrofluoric acid inhaled

[erik winkler]

Okay this may sound as a stupid question, but what should i do?

I just wanted to try (for the first time) to acid etch with hydrofloric acid.
I opened the extra strong plastic bottle of 71%-75% Hydrofloric acid and fumes came out.
Before i knew it i inhaled some of the fumes and it started to burn and hurt a little bit in the lungs....

Does this happen with you guys as well? Fumes etc?
Ofcourse i wore my protective eyewear and specialized gloves....

[Billy Pickett]

...Eric, huffing any acid fumes can't be good for ya. The HF's big danger is getting it on your skin. You won't feel it burning (so I have been told), but it goes right in ya and attacks your bones!!! That's why it's recommended to wear rubber gloves. And also add some red food coloring to it so you can see where it is if you spill any!!! yikes!

[Roderick Treece]

Erick,
Go to the Hospital!

[Roderick Treece]

Inhalation:
Get medical help immediately. If patient is unconscious, give artificial respiration or use inhalator. Keep patient warm and resting, and send to hospital after first aid is complete.
Ingestion:



Note to Physician:
General: For burns of moderate areas, (greater than 8 square inches), ingestion and significant inhalation exposure, severe systemic effects may occur, and admission to a critical care unit should be considered. Monitor and correct for hypocalcemia, cardiac arrhythmias, hypomagnesemia and hyperkalemia. In some cases renal dialysis may be indicated.

Inhalation: Treat as chemical pneumonia. Monitor for hypocalcemia, 2.5% calcium gluconate in normal saline by nebulizer or by IPPB with 100% oxygen may decrease pulmonary damage. Bronchodilators may also be administered.

[Danny Baronian]

Go to the hospital now, just as Roderick said. You may need your eyes flushed too, but this forum is obvisously - not - for dispensing medical advice.

Handling acid requires an apron, gloves, face protection, adequate ventilation and a respirator - and a through knowledge of safely handling hazardous materials.

Next time - do a search on this forum for acid - and read each note carefully! Safety precautions have been posted, stressed and discussed at length.

[Patrick Mackle]

Erik phoned me and I had him describe his situation. Without including a respirator and a fan he had inhaled some fumes while pouring out some fresh acid. He did not immediately smell the fumes because he was breathing through his mouth. While he did not have a "significant inhalation exposure" he did experience some exposure. In my personal experience a slight exposure like Erik's is not lethal and only lasted for a few hours with no complications. Exposure dangers increase greatly with the strength and the time you are exposed. In talking with Erik I mentioned that if he did not go to the hospital, that he should at least have someone near in case he develops any changes in how he feels (ie: changes in breathing) or fluid build up. If he is normally healthy as I am, he should be fine and this episode will make him more aware of the precautions to employ when using chemicals of any nature. It is also a lesson for others on this board. Make no mistake about it! If Erik had spilled some of that 70% on his body it would have been very ugly and very lethal! I found a dated news letter on the internet about a British lab assistant who spilled some HF on himself. The acid was absorbed into his skin and eventually effected the balance of the electrolite that links the brain to the beating of the heart and the man went into cardiac arrest and died.
If you choose to work with this material, you need to really KNOW it and RESPECT it and except the results if you don't.
The web has accounts of fatal exposures. Anyone who decides to acid etch OR is currently acid etching should read this one.
http://bizline.docep.wa.gov.au/safetyli ... roflou.pdf
Pat

[erik winkler]

I know I can not swear on this public forum ,but @%$*^*)^)^*%^ did I got scared!

Just came back from the hospital and they made a quick check, called the toxic health organisation in Nederland and they told me that since i do not have any rigorous complaints I will be allright.... bye bye and if you feel getting worse come back in a hurry.

In retrospect:
First of all I want to appologise to Roderick, miss Treece and Pat that I called them long distance at 7 o 'clock in the morning ( it was about 4 in afternoon at mine toxic place).
You helped me a lot with your best advise. It means a lot to me!

What happened:
I bought some hydrofluoric acid at the chemical wholesale company in Nederland.
71%-75% that is as strong as you can get anywhere.
Bought some red foodcolouring (Now I would suggest green, because if your skin is irritated, bye the acid, it turns red also).
Bought some special gloves made of a plastic called 'Nitril', because vinyl or latex gloves will not do.
Bought some special protective I wear.

After cleaning my glass, cutting my stencil I wanted to poor some of the hydrofluoric acid in a smaller plastic container and ad some of the foodcolouring.
While wearing my gloves and eyewear I uncapped the plastic bottle and it started to smoke.
Fumes came up and filled a large portion of my big new 'Letterhead' table.
The gigantic air-sucker we have above our eco-solvent printer could not get the fumes away quick enough because it was hanged about 4 meters from the table.
While pooring and mixing i inhalled about 5 times a good dosis of fumes and my lungs started to burn.
Rethinking what I was doing I got scared and quickly sealed the plastic bottle and the container as well.
Picked up the MSDS (Medical safety data sheet) and read the inhalling part: "Place the victim as soon as possible in fresh air. Allways call for a doctor. With breathingproblems: undo tight clothing and if victim is consious place him in a sitting position. When breathing is difficult or stops IMMEDIATLY resperate and transport as quickly as possible to the hospital".

Now i got real scared, I read all the warnings on the forum, the discusions about not to scare letterheads too much on the one hand and do scare them because they have to know with what kind of dangerous chemicals they are working.
But the fact that my lungs had a burning sensation made my adrenaline rush skyhigh!
I tried to call dave Smith, because he is the etching pro who peobably can help me.... now answer, "dammed Dave pick up the phone!" Haha now i have to laugh about it, but man I was panicking .
Then I started to think I have to call the chemical company, they could not help because they did not knew anything more than the safety sheet said: "Go to the hospital" they said.
I called 911 and they asked "Can you stand? Can you breath, do you feel okay". Yes I feel okay, but I do not know what i feel, because the adrenaline is pumping.
Lungs were burning still, but i did not know how much....

Than i called Roderick, he said to call Pat, line broke. I called pat and he conferd me by telling that with my contact with the fumes i would do allright, since i did not have any serious breathing problems, but also said that the concentration of 71%-75% is pretty high and i should have sombody sleep over if at night my lungs would start to fill with bodyfluid.
Called Roderick back to tell him that i am allright and he must not worry to much about me, because i just had pat on the phone and he said it was not that livethreatning.
Pat: "Is this Erik?!" I responded: "Yes?...". Pat replied instantly: "GO TO THE D O C T O R NOW! I will post on the forum what I found, you can read it, but go to the doctor to be safe!"

Well the first aid, noted everything down, 5 deep inheallations of the high concentration of Hydrofluoric acid. Burning lungs. They called the chemical department of the overall hospital nederland and they said if he does not feel bad he can go home. Listen to his lungs, look in his throat and that is it.
No strange sound in my lungs, no red throat: Erik you can go home, but ofcourse you want to continue to etch that glass, how will you go by?

I said: "I will work outside, wear an aprone made from the Nitril plastic, wear protective glasses AND wear a mask.
I looked it up and found out that you can wear disposal masks from 3M or high quality mask as long as they have a carbon filter in it.
Because the carbon in the filter will stop the fumes entering your lungs.

Well now my adrenaline made me very thursty, I will have a girlfriend wach over me tonight and felt obligged to inform you all about this mishap and thank Rod and pat eventhough I may look stupid by posting this.
Happy etching!

[erik winkler]

Go to the hospital now, just as Roderick said. You may need your eyes flushed too, but this forum is obvisously - not - for dispensing medical advice.

Handling acid requires an apron, gloves, face protection, adequate ventilation and a respirator - and a through knowledge of safely handling hazardous materials.

Next time - do a search on this forum for acid - and read each note carefully! Safety precautions have been posted, stressed and discussed at length.

Hello Danny,
I just read your reply and Pat's.
Ofcourse it is good to kick someones butt if he needs it.
But still i wanted to make clear that i had all the precautions made that i was familiar with.
I did not read about the fumes anywhere...
I even studied Chemistry at the University before I got my master in art history, there i had to do a safety course of 3 weeks before being allowed to work with the chemicals.
The only (stupid) thing is that I did not knew that Hydrofluoric acid gives fumes out of the bottle when opened......
Let this indeed be a lesson for others.
No swear this time, but an amen!

[Aaron Taylor]

Glad to hear you are alright! That sounds very scarie! I want to use HF one day, but not any time soon, and after I have worked under someone that is experience. Hey at least one good thing came from this, the girlfriend sleep over! LOL

[DAVE SMITH]

Glad to hear your alive and kicking Erik! When you start chipping do not watch the entire process with your eyes staring directly at the glass,little pieces will be breaking off with glass on them!
If you have any silvering to do in the future send it to me and I will do it for you.
Man you worry me big time.................
Dave

[erik winkler]

Joker Dave,

You do not have to worry any further, I will dress up like darth father next time....

[Duncan Wilkie]

What a frightening post. I'm relieved to hear you are apparently okay. I have to ask, where did you obtain the HF and what warnings did you receive regarding the stuff?

[Patrick Mackle]

Now that we have had a good scare, I want to repost this pdf that accounts that what Erik experienced could have been much much worse.
http://bizline.docep.wa.gov.au/safetyli ... roflou.pdf
The point is not only do you need to be safe, you have to safeguard against ANYBODY coming in contact with potential hazards that you bring into your shop or home. Its YOUR responsibility!
What if something happens to you and your family or friends come to clear your belongings, or a child or pet manages to open a container? Everyone knows that when someone opens a bottle to see whats inside, the first thing they do is smell it!
It is much like owning a lethal weapon. If it is not secured, ABSOLUTELY SECURED, and others informed and WARNED of its potential, life changing accidents can occur which can not be fixed.
If Erik had somehow stumbled, sneezed or had been startled while pouring off that extremely strong 70% acid and created a spill, and if he was unable to immediately remove himself from the fumes he wouldn't have fared so well to say the least. I myself, do not even trust the handle on the bottle, as I have found that the acid will make the polypropylene brittle with time. I could foresee the handle cracking off, and the bottle striking the ground like a water balloon, splashing up onto my legs. That would be fatal.
Rick Glawson taught acid etching, and I was always concerned because I felt Rick was a little "cavaliere" with some of his chemicals. For instance I saw him using his orange silver strip, which is actually Chromic acid to remove silvering chemicals from his fingers. I warned him that the chemical can cause deep tissue burns that may never heal, and his smiling reply was "this stuff is buffered". (NOT!!)
This may be a good time to review all of the hazard materials you have acquired around your person and rethink about being safe.
Pat

[erik winkler]

I did got a full MSDS sheet reread it 10 times before I started.
But I was shocked that it started to smoke out of the bottle, that was the only suprise.
I had my protective clothing, eccapt the mask and an apron: also a must!

If something CAN go wrong sometime IT WILL go wrong.

Before i ordered the chemicals I bought a metal safe-cabinet WITH a lock!
Placed some healthhazard stickers on the cabinet, so everybody can see that the contents are dangerous and lethal.
Escpecially for the fireman if the in case of a fire have to hose water in my firm.

My distance during pooring was with stretched arms and with respect for the chemicals.

[Wayne Osborne]

Erik- Woooh scarey stuff eh?-
I was always taught to beware of Hotties, Heavies and Sharpies... looks like I better add Smellies to that list

All Joking aside, - When I took Dave Smith's Workshop, the one thing I was made very aware of was the dangers of working with acid.

Be careful out there folks

[Wayne Osborne]

ooops -double post

[DAVE SMITH]

Erik
The gloves I used that day were the proper gloves to use they are called Stanzoil Neoprene gloves which you can get at most chemical and paint supplies. they look simamlar to the ordinary latex gloves.
If you also remember we were mixing the acids outside to avoid inhalation which I expressed deeply to you. I'm glad your ok but just be aware of these precautions like I stated at the time and as Pat also as stated. I have been handling this stuff for the past 18 years and never had any accidents or inhaled from the bottle. I remember when you were here you expressed in your way and your voice how frightened you were to be handling this material. Maybe you should not be acid etching and farm it out to someone else locally,just an idea mate if your a wee bit worried about using it again.
I'm on the end of the phone like I said if you have any questions.
Dave

[Wayne Osborne]

When I was there Dave- you had some very smart extraction/ventilation kit over your acid bench....an essential bit of kit.

The big dangers of acid work, were one of the reasons I did Dave's workshop- I wanted to make a piece using acid etching, but knew I would never be safe to do it on my own at home- I hav'nt attempted it since for similar reasons, but under the controlled supervision of an expert I was able to try this techniche.

If i was going to do anything again I would be straight back down to Dave's for a severe acid workshop, before attempting it alone.

This stuff bites!

[ggodby]

Erik,
Sorry, to hear about your negative experience with the acid and I'm relieved to hear everything turned out for the best.

On the other hand...I also have to step in here and say I agree with Wayne when it came to precautions that were used at Dave Smith's workshop. Not only was proper ventilation stressed (outdoors if possible), but we even constructed a make-shift tent out of a waterproof tarp when it was misting outside!

The one thing I did learn coming away from that workshop was the proper handling and potential hazard that acid held. I felt total respect for that stuff and not to mention... safe under Dave's supervision.

It would also be a good policy to have a portable fan "pulling" the air away and outside from you and your project if working indoors.

Once again, glad your experience turned out to be non lethal.

Gary

[erik winkler]

Just came back from Bremen Germany.

Had a good thinking over of the etching scare.

I can not stress enough that i had an "smart extraction/ventilation kit over your acid bench" not a little one, but one wich sucks so hard that your hair will fly out of the roof when you put your head in the tube (50cm in diameter!). But it was not above, but 3 meters away. I thought that would be enough because i never new the acid could smoke like it did.
I remember that Dave was very carefull with the acid. And showed me to work outside. I forgot that this was because of fumes.
The other thing i forgot was that the solution used was of a lower concentration 48% he repeated this on the phone also friday.
I made a mistake in using the high concentration inside where the sucking-fan was too far away and not working with a mask.
Sounds crazy, but even with the tons of notes I made I still forgot a lot more.

I thought about the things said here and concluded:
If you burn your fingers on the teapot will you never poor an other cup?
If you have a car accident do you stop driving?
Well this could be very dangerous, but I have lurned my lesson.

I will continue the trying the technique and ask here if there are any questions left, how trifial they may seem; hoping someone will be kins enough to aswer them. Reread the old post for the tenth time.
I feel stupid sometime to ask the most simple questions, but it is more stupid to do not ask when working with these dangerous materials.

[Danny Baronian]

Erik,

You've learned and heard from the best, and you've received good information. A few more to consider while beating yourself up:

"I even studied Chemistry at the University before I got my master in art history, there i had to do a safety course of 3 weeks before being allowed to work with the chemicals.
The only (stupid) thing is that I did not knew that Hydrofluoric acid gives fumes out of the bottle when opened......"

You didn't apply what you learned at the University. Smell, inhalation..... Of the basics in University the instructor warned of that danger. With EVERYTHING you open. Treat ALL chemicals as hazardous. If your unsure, or hesitant: don't.

Etching acid is dilute, and are not as potent. That doesn't mean it should be treated with any less care.

You can be too caviler or overly cautious with anything. From your description, I'd guess it was the latter. Both can be dangerous.

I've seen Dave Smith preparing un-concentrated acid. He was wearing an apron, gloves, face shield and a respirator. The photos may still be on the forum.

Skip the notes. In large type, type out the essentials: gloves, respirator, face shield and apron followed by the dilution required. Print it and post it in front of your workbench - outside. If your gloves sit unused for long periods of time, replace with new ones, the material will deteriorate. Gloves are cheap, hands aren't...

Danny

[Patrick Mackle]

Question: If you have a car accident do you stop driving?
Answer: If you die, YES!

I should add here that when Erik phoned me for advice on what to do, that I informed him of a similar incident I had with the fumes. No one is above having an incidence no matter how cautious you are.
This retort that I posted above is just the "Carlin" in my sense of humor, but really intended to get the point across to others on this board that you may not get a second chance.

Pat

[erik winkler]

Again: I did not smell it!
I worked with it with streched arms, but the smoke made its way through the area very quickly!
In a flash I thought about what I read and saw, during the months of preparation, capped up the two bottles.
In all it did not exceed more than 30-40 seconds.
I wore protection. I have 10 pair of ultra specialized gloves in my steel cabinet wrapped in air tight plastic bags. Enough for a few weeks I would think.
I have 5 pair of chemical protective glasses. I read the MSDS sheet BEFORE working.
I did treat the chemicals as hazardous. Therefore I was doing exactly what I was learned (and passed the exam) at the University.
I was not unsure, or hesitant because i did new what I saw before and did not see it smoke or a mask before when working with the acid!
Furthermore I was not etching inside!!!!!! I only wanted to get some acid out of the big bottle and put it in a smaller bottle so that I could start with the first safety steps like: Putting some foodcolouring through the acid.

One question and please only honoust answers...
Do they etchers among you have calcium gluconate gel on the table or in the shop to apply
to the affected area (this gel is an effective topical treatment for hydrofluoric acid burns), when working with the acid?

[Patrick Mackle]

One question and please only honoust answers...
Do they etchers among you have calcium gluconate gel on the table or in the shop to apply
to the affected area (this gel is an effective topical treatment for hydrofluoric acid burns), when working with the acid?[/quote]

When I first started etching, I heard about calcium gluconate, but I believe it was also called "iced zepheron". That's probably why
I was unable to locate any. Also I figured that if you had any contact with the HF you were pretty much screwed anyway. I did however
drive to Los Angeles were there is a building with a big sign that states it is the emergency center for serious industrial accidents in the L.A. area.
I went inside to get the absolute facts on HF accidents and ask if they had any "iced zepheron" and they answered that they knew nothing about treating
HF accidents and didn't know where they would send me.
So I decided to just be VERY careful, overly cautious in fact.
When I attended a meet at Larry's, he had calcium gluconate on hand in small tubes. I thought about buying some, but figured once again that if you made
serious contact that you were screwed. It was not until I downloaded the accident account that I posted earlier here above, that I learned that the gluconate can actually be effective in drawing out the flouride from your skin that I NOW understand why it is a must to keep near when etching. I will certainly locate a supplier online and order some sent to me.
I thank Erik for calling my attention to the product.
Pat

[Kelly Thorson]

When I purchased hydroflouric acid I ordered the gel with it. Although it is no substitution for being extremely careful, it seems a bit foolish to me to not have it on hand in case of an unforseen accident. From what I was told it can seriously reduce the damage done in case of an accidental exposure. Just a note of caution though, the gel has a shelf life of about 1 year and should be stored in a refrigerator if possible and replaced with a fresh supply after its expiration date has passed.

Eric, I'm glad you are OK and thanks for sharing your experience here. It serves as a reminder to all of us to be smart and careful when dealing with acid and other dangerous substances. I'm sure we all learned something from it.

[DAVE SMITH]

Yes I also have tubes of the Calcium Gluconate,it comes with the order when you buy the HF.
Dave

[Robare M. Novou]

Now that we know "how to" and "how not" to handle Hydroflouric Acid.....How should Hydroflouric Acid be safely stored?

RMN

[Danny Baronian]

Calcium gluconate and calcium carbonate in powder form, both purchased where I purchase HF. It's what they use in the event of contact.

Shelf life is indefinite as long as it remains in a tightly sealed container, free from moisture.

[Jerry Berg]

I'm glad to see this was just a good learning experience and not a serious injury! Keep on going Erik, the learning never ends. (for all of us).

[erik winkler]

Well the last few days I have been searching what protection mask, filters, suits, facial-sheets and over-shoe's are safe with HF and wich are not.
To summerice (without the Calcium gluconate and calcium carbonate in powder form) it will cost a lot, but on safety there can not be financial borders.
I think about 250,00 - 300,00 euro's that is 300,00 - 350 us dollars.

Well can't wait to re-begin, because now the acid is getting personal,



Erik Vader