Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum!
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.

Epoxy Question

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

Post Reply
Rick Sacks
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mendocino, California
Contact:

Epoxy Question

Post by Rick Sacks »

When laminate stacking redwood boards using West System epoxy,
do you apply to both surfaces or a single surface?
Do you apply liberally or a thinner layer?
Do you use a tight clamp pressure or just snug?
Do you find this a better method than the urethane adhesives such as Gorilla glue?
Mendocino, California
"Where the redwoods meet the Sea"
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Mike Jackson »

I haven't glued up a redwood sign in 14 years, but here's the old info:

Both sides.
Liberal application one side, just wet on the other.
Medium Pressure.

If there are better glues out now, others would know.

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Mark Summers
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:03 pm
Location: Frisco, Co
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Mark Summers »

MJ is right just apply liberally (wear plastic gloves) have a plastic
scraper handy to scrape sides off into a dixie cup. That's basically
it but I'm not sure why you would want to go with epoxy anyway.
Titebond II weatherproof with the duck on the plastic bottle
is more than sufficient. I have weighted redwood under water
for weeks with Titebond II and the joints were never affected.
Epoxy is great but expensive.

Mark
Danny Baronian
Site Admin
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:16 am
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Danny Baronian »

Rick, check out Doug and Joe's test on the forum, which was posted within the last month which contained some good information.

Why consider epoxy? It's more expensive, has a shorter shelf life, and I'd question whether it provides any better adhesive properties. I've used Titebond for at least 25 years. The current type is Titebond III. Gorilla glue would be the second choice, or Franklin's (mfg of Titebond) urethane glue.

Anyone doing this type of work should regularly test the products they use to know firsthand what works (again, read the comments on Doug and Joe's post). Same with paints. Test as in glue up a sample today and hang it outside. Date it and check it at a later date, the longer the better.

Joe made a half dozen plaques and sent them to shops to see how they'd hold up outside in various parts of the US. You don't need to do that, but it provided Joe with valuable information. The last thing anyone wants is failure of our materials or construction methods.

First choice would be Titebond III. It's not water resistant, it's waterproof. In use and application it's much like regular yellow wood glues, other than it's tan in color and truly waterproof.

As far as clamping, it hasn't changed since shop class, regardless of adhesive. Apply to one side, spread out evenly over the whole surface, assemble, clamp up. Too much pressure can squeeze the glue out on a small project, too little will make a weak joint.

If you still have questions type in titebond III and you'll get this: http://www.titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP ... ?prodcat=1

Easier than using the yellow pages. Look for an 800 number, call and ask for technical support or the lab. They will direct you to pdf doc's for the product, and even supply samples for testing. Most likely you'll find the pdf docs on line. Advantage in calling is getting samples on request.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Mike Jackson »

I haven't used Titebond III so I don't know how it sands.

One of the reasons I always like epoxy was the fact it dried rock hard and I could sand it without filling the sandpaper. Some of the other glues gummed up the sandpaper almost immediately.

Again, some of these new glues may be as good as epoxy or even better.

This forum is a great place for this kind of question as you get a variety of responses and many valuable opinions.

MJ
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
Danny Baronian
Site Admin
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:16 am
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Danny Baronian »

Titebond doesn't clog up the sandpaper as many of the older formulations of wood glue. As compared to epoxy, I don't know, but with cured titebond it's not the problem it used to be. A lot has been done in the formulation of the glue as well as sandpaper to reduce clogging by the respective manufactures.

Another advantage to titebond is clamps can be taken off in within 45 minutes for small jobs. For larger, or heaver jobs 4-6 hours. If I remember correctly, epoxy recommended 12 - 24 hours.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Mike Jackson »

We always did the glue-ups at the very end of the work day and then took them out of the clamps in the morning. I am sure it averaged 12 hours or more, but it always seemed plenty cured.

MJ
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
joe cieslowski
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: east canaan ct
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by joe cieslowski »

I'll just throw this into the mix........

Many years ago I always used Elmers Waterproof Glue for the outdoor work....I believe it's a resorcinol glue. It was two part and a mess to use but it worked.....it was the standard for boat building. When titebond I came out I switched. It was moisture "resistant". Titebond II improved and was listed as waterproof for use above the water line.....now there is Titebond III which is waterproof. I tried the III but I got an unusual swelling at the glue line that actually shrank much later after curing......noticeable on my little house signs so i went back to II. I like this glue for wood because it's "sticky". With a minimum of clamping pressure, the joint begins to "stick" rather than slide and matching the joints is much easier. Also, these aliphatic resin glues don't become brittle with age.....important when wood moves throughout the seasons.

I've never tried epoxy on wood. I rejected it out of hand because it does dry hard and is brittle and not an easy mess to clean up. Not that it won't work, I just didn't need anything "better" than I had. I tend to stick to the familar as long as it keeps working.

I've already said my piece on the urathane glues and HDU. I have no reason to switch as per above stated reasons.

Here's a link to a simple chart on which glues to use for most situations.....

http://www.rcrcc.com/adhesive_reference_chart.htm

Danny pretty much nailed the rest.

Joe,
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Rick Sacks
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mendocino, California
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Rick Sacks »

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback.
I've been using the gorilla snot for many years without any failures.
Somehow I had this notion that the West Systems epoxy was better and wanted to use the best product rather than the good enough product. It sounds like what was the best twenty five years ago has been replaced with something simpler.
Mendocino, California
"Where the redwoods meet the Sea"
Danny Baronian
Site Admin
Posts: 638
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:16 am
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Danny Baronian »

Hi Joe,

forgot about resorcinol glue. Used that too, the mess was similar to epoxy, and left stains on your hands like gorilla glue. But it worked well.

Never noticed the shrinking problems with titebond III, but after glue up I always ran it through the planer which eliminated that.

The sticky properties of aliphatic resin glues was a plus. I generally coat one surface, mate the parts, separate them for a minute which allows them to skim slightly, reassemble and clamp up. Doing that eliminates any creep.

As long as your following this Joe - and Doug? - why in the world were you trying to glue dibond to HDU? Out of curiosity, I glued up dibond to HDU with gorilla glue and let set for 8 hours. I left a piece of the dibond hanging over the HUD so I could pull it up. It separated easily, but the glue was adhered to the dibond, the surface of the HDU was irregular, as it went with the dibond and glue. In other words the glue joint didn't fail.

The remaining assembly I tried to rotate, or shear off the HDU, and was unable to.

The better choice for a backer is marine grade ply rather than dibond.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
CNC Routing & Fabrication
http://www.baronian.com
joe cieslowski
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 6:15 pm
Location: east canaan ct
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by joe cieslowski »

The dibond/HDU test by Doug was at Ray C's request.....something about a dissimilar materal test. Danny, I plane or drum sand after glue-up but the shrinkage came days later....no matter "II" works just as well (but "III" does have a color difference too).

Remeber the add "The glue joint is stronger than the wood itself!" It's true. Seems that your dibond/HDU test proves it as well. We did a lot of distructive testing in college (Vega Tester). That was kool cause you got a readout on the pressure needed to cause failure.

I always felt that testing beyond any normal use was a waste of my time but I suppose what ever makes one feel secure is a good test.

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Doug Bernhardt
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:29 am
Location: Ottawa Canada
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Have been playing with a new computer the past couple days (OMG is enuf to say about that) and missed this post which I've spent some time with. 1st.....why bother with epoxy when the poly urethanes are just as good BUT........when using the west system don't forget the 406 filler. VERY important to the mix. Apply to both edges then mix some of the 406 into it.will be quite a paste, and then spread that mix on. It won't be a hard as the epoxy straight from the can , but that's actually a good thing. One way or the other wood will move and a "flexible" bond is what ya wanna see.!! As far as the new titebonds with me they are still in test mode and won't try it on anything important until a year from now. Have a piece of cedar in the backyard! Must be great to have some redwood to carve with although I've been having a pile of fun with a few other things lately.....more on all that shortly!!
Jerry Berg
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 3:17 pm
Location: pacific northwest

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Jerry Berg »

Does anyone still use the Weld-on plastic resin glue for laminating up thier redwood blanks?
Don't know if any of you ever did, but that's what was used by most everyone around my area.
I've got blasted signs still up from 30+ years ago holding up just fine using this.
Rick Sacks
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Mendocino, California
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Rick Sacks »

Jerry, Weld On bought out the old recorcinal product. Almost the same stuff, different label.
Mendocino, California
"Where the redwoods meet the Sea"
Raymond Chapman
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:50 pm
Location: Temple. Texas

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Raymond Chapman »

Danny - with our heat in Texas we found that MDO worked well as a backer for HDU unless the sign was long and narrow. It was perfect for free standing panels between posts, but when we used it for some 18" x 8' dimensional signs that were mounted flat against a brick wall, they warped and pulled away fromthe wall about an inch on each end.

Since we have started using Dibond we've had no problems. We don't have a lot of moisture or cold here in this part of Texas, but we do have a lot of heat. (I don't think Mike Jackson is planning any trips to this area) It may have been that the expansion rate of the MDO and the HDU were so different that something had to warp.
Doug Bernhardt
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:29 am
Location: Ottawa Canada
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Raymond, Did that occur on one job like that or on others with the same method? I've been using the overlayed plywood here and no problems "SO" far.
Raymond Chapman
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:50 pm
Location: Temple. Texas

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Raymond Chapman »

It occured on three separate jobs - all on dark brick walls. Some were small 6" x 48" (four panels for a dentist directory), largest was 18" x 96".

It could be that the brick was absorbing so much heat that the backing (or the HDU) was just expanding more than the other layer.
Doug Bernhardt
Posts: 1077
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:29 am
Location: Ottawa Canada
Contact:

Re: Epoxy Question

Post by Doug Bernhardt »

Yup.....more than once is a problem and now I understand your concern over the adhesives. Good luck with whatever you try and let us know what you find with further tests.
Post Reply