Extira Problems

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joe crumley
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Extira Problems

Post by joe crumley » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:52 pm

Today we were finishing up on a couple of large Extira panel signs that were shaped, routed, & V Carved. They both failed.

Terry, my assistant had primed those panels with Ronan block-out and didn't seal them first with Epoxy, or shellac which turned out to be a real mistake.

I was finishing up with the application of vinyl, and when removing the premask, the paint pealed right up. 80 percnet of it lifted right off in big sheets. The primer had dried a couple of days and the finish acrylic paint was dry by a week.

I called the manufacture, and got ahold of Tom their expert, who informed me that they couldn't be sure how to seal this stuff, but was sure it was needed

In their manufacturing processe, they make prepainted building panels, which are pressure heat treatment, but Tom wasn't sure what to use for the raw panels we are getting. He Honestly admitted that they wern't aware the sign industry would be interested in this material and there has little or no paint adhestion test.

I was referred to "The Sign Shop", in Colorado Srpings, who had done some trials.

Would like to hear from experienced users of this product.

Joe

Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian » Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:38 am

Joe,

Someone at Extira knows their product is being advertised as an exterior sign product since full page ads in Sign Business and possibly Sign of the Times have been run for the last several months.

I have several panels that have been primed and painted, but exhibit none of the failures you mention, even after applying and pulling up some vinyl to reproduce the problem you describe. Have you done any long term testing with the coat out methods your using?

I'm not familiar with Ronan block out. While it's rated for wood and MDO, it's not listed as a material that has good penetrating abilities according to their product listings.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
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joe crumley
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Post by joe crumley » Wed Oct 13, 2004 6:47 am

Dan,

Acorn Graphics called me yesterday concerning the same problem with Extira. They were using a latex primer.

Tom, the Extira rep. with whom I spoke, did suggest a sealer, but wasn't sure what.

I will post the contact name and number this evening for their technical department.

Give them a call.

j

Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson » Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:22 am

Joe,
Sounds like you are getting the run around if the tech guy says:
He Honestly admitted that they wern't aware the sign industry would be interested in this material and there has little or no paint adhestion test.
I've seen the ads in the sign trade magazines, too.


I am unclear whether the latex paint is coming off in sheets "off of the Ronan Blockout" or if the blockout and latex paint is coming of together "off the Extira"? Maybe I just didn't read it clearly, but the answer is important.

If you remember Glen Newcomer in north OKC, I used to watch him when I first started in the sign business. He never used block out on his MDO panels. He just used straight background enamel. The first coat soaked in almost immediately, and while still wet he rolled over it again which allowed for a slight build up layer. After that layer dried, he coated the panels again with a couple of wet on wet layers and called it good. With all the paint actually soaking in and bonding to the underlying mdo paper, I doubt he could ever anticipate a paint adhesion problem. After I traveled around and met other sign people, I learned of blockout and started using it, without problems, but I always remember the way Glen did it. If the primer and the top coats are coming up togethers, sounds like you did not get a good bond between the material and the very first coat.

On the other side, I never really trusted painting a latex overcoat on top of an oil based primer—as is sound like you are doing here. I have had problems with peeling when doing that two part combination. I usually opt to prime with oil and paint with oil, or prime with water based primer and paint with water based paint. I'd also be hesitant to prime with water based paint over an epoxy undercoat. You might get a good bond between the latex primer and shellac, but I never really tried much shellac. Taking it to extremes, I usually bought Sherwin Williams latex primer when using Sherwin Williams latex, Olympic primer for Olympic, and so forth.

I doubt you will get too many respones here on this subject since Extira is such a new product. I normally like to wait a while before using something like this, so I can wait to hear of any horror stories (like this one).

Pave the way!
Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
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joe crumley
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Post by joe crumley » Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:06 am

Mike & Danny,

Thank you so much for your reply.

I received their technical bulletin by E mail with priming suggestions. I'm more convinced now than ever, they haven't done there testing although Jay Cooks primer is on the top of their list.

My quote from Tom, their technical person, that they were not aware the sign industry would so interest in their product, was at the outset. Yes we've seen their advertisments. I think they are still amazed. His cell phone is (603) 841-4342 Nice guy.

Mike, you might want to call your local Sherwin Williams dealer and query them on todays primers. Both oil and water based primers are made to accept water based latex, acrylic paints. They are called primers for a reason.

Would throw those panels in the dumpster but spent lots of time on our CNC getting them ready. Yes the acrylic paint is bonded to the primer, it's the primer which has not holding.

The best.

J

Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:10 am

Ha Joe,
Yes....but....I am an old codger now...gray in the beard and all! With that gray, I get to be set in my old ways! If your latex paint is binding to the oil based primer, then it is apparently not the issue here. but this old geeser will probably stick to the oil on oil and latex on latex scenarios. Young whipper snappers, like yourself, can use all these new fangled gadgets (including Extira) and tell us how it is going. :)

It is ashamed a company like that runs ads in the trade magazines (and we trust they have done their own testing), only to find out they are letting us be the field testers. Their techs should at least be able to give you a product name they know will reliably grip to their surface.

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
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Eric H
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Post by Eric H » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:32 am

Hi everybody, this is my first post here. I have not done anything with Extira, but is it possible that whatever they use to waterproof it may keep water based paints from sticking? Maybe a oil based primer would work.
Just an idea.

Danny Baronian
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Post by Danny Baronian » Thu Oct 14, 2004 11:38 am

Too many unknowns here so I tried calling Tom, phones busy. Called Extira help line and talked to Liah who was very helpful. According to her, the company is aware of the sign market, and is actively promoting the product to our industry.

There is a tech sheet available, with information provided in part by Sherman Williams, which is a recommended paint. I've been doing the same as Mike described, I stick with the same company for the whole project when coating panels out. Latex to latex, oil to oil. I am currently working on a panel of Exira that was primed with Sherman Williams, followed by their base coats with no problems.

I don't know what Ronan block out is used for, others that are familiar with it can jump in any time and add more, but from what I can determine, a block out will not penetrate a composite as well as a primer designed specifically for this application.By your description of the panel - the failure occurs from the initial coat. I would also stay away from the epoxy wash, I see that as a source for adhesion problems too.

Here's a quick fix from experience. Buy another panel, possibly medex. Route it, coat it out with the suggested primers and get the job out the door. I have tried to 'fix' problems only to find after hours - or days, it had to be re-done from scratch. What's a panel, 40, 50 bucks? I know, there's time on the CNC too, but how much time has already been wasted?

The second quick fix is to strip the panel, sand and repaint. But if you do, keep an accurate account of time and materials. You'll find starting fresh will save time and money. Every time.

Just received the tech sheets, specifically geared for signage. Three companies were listed that have tested paint systems that produced acceptable results: Akzo Nobel Coatings, Sherwin Williams and Valspar. Under finishing: "Use a high quality exterior oil/alkyd solvent based or acrylic latex primer system specifically designed for use on wood composite substrates.

Hope this helps,

Danny

Edited

Joe, Jay Cooke's primer was at the top of the list because it's listed alphabetically. For the application you outlined, an oil based primer is recommended, Cook's primer is water based. If you are applying vinyl lettering, use a low tack transfer tape.

Danny
Danny Baronian
Baronian Mfg.
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Mike Jackson
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Post by Mike Jackson » Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:35 pm

Danny,
Ronan is a competitor of One Shot/Chromatic and Dana. I grew up in Oklahoma City and started business there. Neo Sign Supply was the sign supplier and they carred the full Ronan product line. I never knew about other paint brands for a long time. Steve Berman started Chromatic in the mid 80s, and through his personal care and attention, he and his wife Lori brought nurtured the company to be a real player. It is now owned by One Shot. Akzo owned the Chromatic line for a while. It seems there are hot spots for each brand. People in the Denver area swear by Dana colors. Ronan has been around a long time and they make a good product, too.

Mike
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
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joe crumley
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Post by joe crumley » Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:27 pm

Mike & Danny,

Thank you both for your prompt reply's.

Boy this is a challenging business made ever worse by the afore mentioned product.

Danny: I'm glad you called Extira, and hope others will also call and get their spec. sheet. You may have notice that Ronan is one of their suggested product vendors. It has worked well for us over the past twenty seven years, so I am hesitant to fault it.

My reason for posting the Extira disaster is to keep other artists from problems.

J

Robare M. Novou
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Extira

Post by Robare M. Novou » Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:16 pm

Dont use a water based primer on Extira...it will not stick

Hose of the board with water to remove dust, let dry, then prime with oil based primer.

RMN

joe crumley
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Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Post by joe crumley » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:21 pm

Robare,

I think you are on the right track about not using latex primers on Extira.

Dale Kerr and I were discussing this top a few days ago, after several of his custom signs had paint lifting while putting on vinyl. He to was using Extira's recomended water based primer.

His suspicion was the Extira is soaked with phonolic resin which gives it water resistance. Doesn't seem likely that a latex primer would soak in enough.

j.
www.normansignco.com

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