Another price question: Silvering two bowls

[erik winkler]

Here we go again...
I just received a question how must it would cost to silver two glas bowls from the inside.
The diameter size of ach bowl is about 15.7 inch.
Again the question is: How much would I have to charge for this?
I do not feel the material, time etc covers the costs, because also my learning curve must be paid for, so this again will be an gut-feeling-price.

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My own feeling was around 500 us dollars for the two...?

Should I protect the silver inside also against oxidation if so with what?

Thanks,
Erik

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
I'd send these people to a commercial mirrorer.

I occasionally get out of my comfortable envelope of products, but only if I know I can handle it. While you might be able to get this job done successfully, it is riddled with potential problems far beyond a normal flat piece of glass.

If on the other hand, you want to try this project, explain some of the potential problems with this kind of job and ask them to let you attempt it. If you can get it to work, the price is $150 each and if you can't make a pro finish out of it, you will remove all silver and give them back unharmed. At that point, you have the opportunity to try, opportunity to succeed, and no loss of integrity in failing on a tough project. Then, you can spend a hundred hours and thousands of dollars in silver in the quest for experience, but that would totally be your call.

You could also do this one backwards by trying to silver the inside of a large mouth quart fruit jar. If you can do one of those, you'd know how to silver it and about how long it would take.

That's my suggestion.
M. Jackson

[erik winkler]

Mike,

As allways a perfect advise!!!!

There are no commercial silverers here in the Netherlands! Since I met you letterheads on the web I searched allmost every corner of the wold wide web and did not find but one.
For me that was a reason to invest my time in this beautifull craft also. The one who does it, only does...... yes you guesed it:.... flat glass

I would really like to try and I told the lady artist that I never done round bowls like this before and told her about the mistakes and little failures that can ocure.
The only thing I did not tell her was that I could remove the silver afterwards, because I do not know what chemical to use for the removal of the silver.

The price she normally pays is about 150-200 us dollars per piece, but they are somewhat smaller and she has to wait 3 weeks for them. Go figure, they are done abroad.... I think.
So in my honoust opinion my 250 us dollars a piece was not that stupid. Tricky job, must be done within a week, nobody else can do it. etc etc

The fruit jar tip is a good one not thought about that one haha.
Will go for it tonight. Silverjam(ing).

What would i do if there was no Letterhead forum?
I do not know....

[Roderick Treece]

Eric,
If you can get 500.00 I'd say go for it. Plan on doing it quite a few times to get it right. You might end up not being able to do it perfect so I would also charge them for materials even if you can't do it.
Backing it up should be easy by pouring it in and swriling it around then pour it out

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
I just pulled $150 out of the air. If she pays that for a small one, she should pay a bit more for the larger ones. Silver solution is dirt cheap compared to gold solution, so it is mostly your labor.

As long as you don't paint the backup paint on the inside, you can wipe out most of the silver with a sponge and get the stubborn parts off with silver strip.

Let us know how you do, but I think this is going to be a huge challenge. I visualize problems with getting an even layer of tinning solution, rinsing, and lots of problems with streaking. As a matter of fact, I visualize problems on EVERY step on a job like this. Obviously, it is possible to do it.

And remember, we always talk about doing small samples before jumping into a bigger project. The large mouth mason jar is exactly that. If you can pull it off with the small jar, you might still be able to do it with the large piece, but if you can't silver the inside of a mason jar, I seriously doubt you will be able to do it on the large pieces.

If you say you've read a lot of my articles from SignCraft, look for the one called "The Rattlesnake Pit". The emphasis of the article is realizing we don't have to take every job someone asks us about. Learning to stay somewhere near the center of your product envelope can help you stay profitable and focused on what you know how to do.

[Patrick Mackle]

Erik,
If I were to do that job, I would mount the vessels on a horizontal motorized armature like a lathe with a speed control.
Then I would spray the silver into the vessel as it rotated. It would be even better if the armature could be angled to allow most of the sprayed solution to flow out of the vessel. A proper mirroring spray gun should allow you to narrow down the spray pattern to easily target the inside surface.
I think that pouring in the solution and trying to keep it moving evenly would be difficult and probably produce darker silver marks.
I recall hearing that makers of mirrored garden ball ornaments used a different silvering formula than that generally used for spraying or pouring, but I can't recall exactly how it differed.
As for silver stripping, I have found that simple "tub and tile cleaner" like the blue colored tile cleaner from Smart & Final will dissolve away the silver layer.
Pat

[Roderick Treece]

Pat,
I like the idea of having it rotating while it is sprayed upside down so everything comes out. I didn't like the idea of pouring it. You could do the same thing with the backing paint.

[erik winkler]

Ok you got me scared now.

The one thing I do not want are streaks or darker marks.
I thought if I would silver the inside for three times the silvering would not be semitransparant anymore and will hide some thinner silvered spots....

I do not own a spray gun. I looked at Rodericks (if I am correct) youtube movie and photo's with the spraygun and thought that it needed liter and liters of silvering solution and that would be a waste for just two bowls?.....

Something else, Mike you mentioned an even layer of tinning solution, isn't so that the glas will attach one layer of tin molecules and that's it? Will this really be a problem?
I indeed remember your article, but the thing is: Nothing here mentioned on the Letterhead site was my cup of tea.
I worked along with my parents while on school the same time since I was 4 years old, but our emphasize allways was in progress: Getting the most profit out of the work.
Now being in bussines full time for 7 years, I am bored and want to be more satisfied with what I do besides paying the bills. That is why I am here and why I spent allmost every minute of my spare time in learning what you guys do.
So everything is new and I am greedy for knowledge, I will try and try so that I will succeed and make it in the end.

Will inform the lady with all the problems that can occur and just go for the jars and show them to her.
Sounds a bit geeky, but hey better to inform her upfront than have a disapointed customer at the end.

[Mike Jackson]

Erik,
Steven Parrish said something about a sign maker one time that stuck with me. When describing someone, he said, "Yes, he wants to learn the tricks of the trade before he learns the trade". Somehow, this rings of that statement. Without having an iron clad understanding of the process, nor the correct equipment, you are attempting to tackle something way over the head of most people doing it for years. There is a reason the other guy in your area only does flat glass. I still suggest you pass on this project, then spend the next few years learning how to do the inside of a mason jar. The questions and answers you are asking right now will become immediately apparent. Okay, I'm through. Good luck.

Mike Jackson

[Patrick Mackle]

Instead of investing in a proper silvering gun, you might do the following. Buy two identical smaller sized double action "touch up guns"- made in China and sold at discount tool outlets such as "Harbor Freight" here in the States. I bought some for a ridiculous price of $8.00 each on sale- I now wish I had bought 10 guns- they work GREAT!! Then fabricate out of aluminum a brace to hold the two guns side by side, also allow to be able to project the fan sprays together as desired.
Sometimes the best way to learn things is just to jump right in... but do it as cheaply and cleverly as possible.
Pat

[James Warwick]

Eric, some suggestions to make u think..
To test, I would do as Pat suggested. I would mount a lazy susan or turntable on a board. be able to change the angle of the turntable and turn it by hand or motor. next, form a wire mounting jig or basket out of coat hanger wire to fit around the outside of your bowl. (A dish washing wire or plastic drain rack might work) Mount it onto the turntable. Mount it so the excess fluid will run out of the bowl. Rubber bands can also be used in mounting the bowl into the wire jig.
I don't think you can spray into your bowl. Instead, I would make a semi-rigid tube that can be bent to fit the inside contour of the bowl. You will need holes in it (like a soaker garden hose). Make a drip system (maybe pressurized) to dispense the tin and silver solution thru the tube. Paint could be applied the same way but thinned. Do all this over a catch pan.
Don't forget about your safety too........ Good Luck..

To try and make a mistake is human, to make the same mistake twice is stupid !!

ATF... eBay just sold a mirror spray gun about a week ago for 28.00.

[Robare M. Novou]

Eric, got this PDF instructions from Sarahs Website...this should help.

http://angelgilding.com/media/documents ... ctions.pdf

I would charge anywhere from $150 to $300 for the pair.

RMN

[Robare M. Novou]

Eric, you could purchase some rubber corks to cap off the openings with once you poured in your solutions.

Chemical supply dealers sell those black rubber flask corks in several sizes...and judging by the opening of the glass globe in your picture, they would for sure have one in your size. Check the internet!

Where would you purchase your silvering chemicals from?

I'm assuming that you will be purchasing them somewhere over on your side of the ocean blue.

Keep us posted.

P.S. This is an easy project...and fun! And very profitable!

[Mike Jackson]

Robare,
Thanks for the link to Sarah's site. Maybe it is much easier than I could have envisioned, at least on a small scale vessel. I stand corrected!

Mike Jackson

[erik winkler]

Thanks for the input guys.

Thanks to Mike for giving believing in me

[Robare M. Novou]

Wow, that thing is huge!...and there are two? It did not look that large in your first photo of it. I would up the price to somewhere between $300 and $500 like you originally stated.

Loved the video, but where is the post of the finished piece?

RMN

[erik winkler]

Something went wrong with posting.

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Without trying one will never learn.
Back to the boring computers, there is a bus waiting to be fleedmarked.
But it pays the bread with Dutch cheese.

[Jerry Berg]

Good Eric! What did you end up backing the silver up with?