Sandblasting sample redwood sign/ have questions

[Lenny B]

I started my sample by sandblasting with an inexpensive Sears nozzle and a small shop compressor. Tomorrow I'm renting the large comercial rig and will continue on sample.

A few questions came up, the softer wood blasted right down yet the harder grain remained raised along the letter edge. This appears that it may cause problems keeping a sharp straight edge to the letters. This also may be the result of not having the larger unit.

The grain that's rasied wants to splinter and fray, how does one deal with that? Sand it or use wire brush to clean grain?

Again, it may just be that the present equipment isn't powerful enough.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

Len

[Mike Jackson]

Hi Len,
If you can image rolling out a 71 VW bug on a Nascar course, that's similar to where you are sandblasting with a little Sears blaster. When you get the industrial equipment, you will be able to blast about 1 square foot per minute, on average, to a depth of 3/4" on good vertical grain redwood. In other words, I could almost count on taking 30 minutes to blast a 4x8 sign using a 125 CFM compressor, at 100-120 PSI using a 300 lb pot and a 1/4" nozzle. The smaller the pot, the more often you have to stop to fill it up.

The edges you are seeing should go away with the industrial equipment, UNLESS you have redwood with extremely pronounced growth rings. If you growth rings are at about 6-10 per inch, it will be too coarse. Good, light redwood, will have about 30-40 growth rings per inch. (light meaning weight, and not color).

Hope that helps,
Mike Jackson

[joe crumley]

Len,

I remember my first attempt at sandblasting, and my expectations, and dreams. Half way throught blasting my first piece, I shut down the compressor to examine the affects. Man, I got charged up. This was going to be great! Ya HOO, dang.

Looking back it wasn't much, but to me it was a really something. The roar of the Ingersoll Rand Diesel, and the sand gushing out all seemed so darned significant. What a thrill!

My benchmark was a good friend, who had a shop near-by. That was Mike Jackson, who helped me through the dozens of steps and variables. Boy, those were sure good times. I really miss em.

There are so many threads on this subject, I would suggest you do a search, it's all there for you. You can study and read, for ever, but there's nothing like making the mistakes for yourself.

Although I have a complete fresh air supply, with an air conditioner, sand still get in my ears, and I hate it. So, we know what it is doing to the lungs.

Good Luck

J

[erik winkler]

I could almost count on taking 30 minutes to blast a 4x8 sign using a 125 CFM compressor, at 100-120 PSI using a 300 lb pot and a 1/4" nozzle. The smaller the pot, the more often you have to stop to fill it up.

What kind of blasting pot do you advise?

I have seen some photo's and video's on the internet where people sandblast their signs.
These shots were made in an area where they have no neighbours. They blast in the open air, woods, grassfields etc.
http://www.signcraft.com/mjack094.pdf Mike!
http://www.signprice.com/page5.htm (does anybody know these videos?)
http://www.bc-signproducts.com/id68.html etc etc etc

My business is in an area where my neighbours are direct next to me, in front of me and behind me.
(Some times i feel like a pig in an overfull pigstall and want to bite their ears off )
How do you sandblast HDU or wooden signs when you live for instance in downtown New York City?

O.k. i know there are sandblast cabins in where you can stand, but since space in my firm is limited i wander if a moveable blasting pot and compressor is possible without blowing 50 kilograms of blasting sand in the air?

Since i also want to recycle my grit, for what kind of hardware should i look?

[Mike Jackson]

Erick,
There are usually commercial sandblast comanies in most towns. When I was learning, I still lived in Oklahoma and there lots of them due to the oil fields. They were often used to peel paint and rust off pipe and large equipment. I gladly paid a friend to blast my signs, even when I had my own equipment. It is fun for about 10 minutes, then grunt work after that.

When we moved here, our shop was more or less at the edge of town and we could blast outside. That'd be much tougher now, and I am sure the EPA would throw up a flag if we tried it now. At the time we sold our shop in 1995, we were moving away from sandblasting and more into putting our CNC router to work. We bought a small blast cabinet for the small detail panels, mostly on foam. While there are still people blasting, it is more or less a passed trend. Redwood is hard to get and expensive, so I don't have a clue how people are pricing their work now. We haven't sandblasted a sign panel in 13 years.

When I had the shop, I was always trying to figure out how to set up a booth inside the shop. Commercial units were very expensive. You still have to exhaust the loose particles and sawdust, requiring filtering if in a town area. I would have loved to own an electric air supply, but compressors of that size were very expensive, also requiring some heavy duty wiring.

Overall, I'd say it isn't worth it unless you can find a commercial company that will blast your panels, or let you blast your own panels in their space with their equipment.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson

[erik winkler]

Mike,

While there are still people blasting, it is more or less a passed trend. Redwood is hard to get and expensive, so I don't have a clue how people are pricing their work now. We haven't sandblasted a sign panel in 13 years.

Are you serious? Sandblasting a trend gone bye?! Eventhough the whole internet is full of American sign companies who blast signs? Or is it just the redwood signs and you do not mean HDU? I had one sign made from red-cedar and did it at a glass fabrication firm. I read that letting your signs blasted at an steelblasting company will blast metal particals in your signs which will rust when hanged outside...

I have the strange urge to buy some new equipment since i have seen and studied some of your American made signs (Etched glasswork, sandblasted glass and wood, 3D CNC routed signs etc).
But when reading your tip, it means no blasting equipment for me?..
CNC Router a bit to expensive, hummmm maybe i will buy an new saw-blade

[Mike Jackson]

Erick,
I started blasting my first redwood signs in about 1975 or so. After looking at them for 30 years, they can get a little boring (to me anyway). I've seen some fairly inventive work on sandblasted redwood and foam, but the bulk is uninspired. Go check out Dan Swatsky's stuff to get inspired.

All I am saying is the trend took off in the late 70's and ran its course here. The cost of redwood and the lack of availability of good soft vertical grain material makes it even tougher to sell at a profit. Couple all that with the kind of equipment you need and the nature of the silica dust, I wouldn't do it again if I had to start over.

We talked about the CNC routers in another thread. If I were jumping feet first into making wood signs (and other dimensional materials) again, I'd invest in a router instead of sandblast equipment. But the more important advice would be to find some other place that already does sandblasting and use their equipment, even if you have to bring in your own supply or sand. The compromise I made orignally was to buy my own pot, hoses, hood and blasting equipment and then rent a compressor for half a day when I needed it. But then, I could blast outside and not cause problems.

As always, this is only advice from someone that has already been there and done that. YOU must decide on what floats your boat. When I was 25, sandblasting was a new, fun, and exciting technique.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson

[erik winkler]

Clear and Simple Mike.
See what you mean.
I have looked at hundreds of designs on the web and i got the same feeling: "A lot looks the same".
But still here, in Europe, the technique is 'new and not yet used'. So i want to give it a try, will outsource the sandblasting at a glass firm.

Yesterday at the late night i had a conversation with my parents (the ole' signmakers who are retired, but still help me and my brother out when it is too bussy; almost every day ) about all these things i saw on the forum.
I already showed them the glasswork, carving, blasting and they were impressed. But when i showed them a few youtube video's about handlettering http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=mpr_ul4IU ... 0&index=13, they stepped in and said i was getting too far.
My father said he did all that before the time i could remember and they said: "NOT to waist time in learning the old trade".
He continued with: "Because the keyword is the design and not the technique of handlettering. With a perfect design you can make a mask and even paint it in, but with a poor design with a good handlettering technique you are nowhere".
He told me that 40 years ago he was already laying out designs at home and make the masks on the kitchentable, that he would bring to shopfronts and would paint them in, on the spot. Quote: "So learning and using handtechniques is fine, but still with all this concerned in his time he was also trying to make both ends meet and try to find shortcuts".
His conclusion was: "Devide your time in learning the glass techniques and quality high relief carving (and maybe some blasting- or routingwork), but forget the handlettring.

The question is: "What's hot or not?".
It may be a good new Topic on the forum, what kind of signmaking in your community is hot at the moment?
Here in Nederland everybody wants banner, banners and banners; they are low in costs and big in impact (for now).
http://www.ferrywinkler.nl/zeildoek/. It is all about the design, boring boring and little satisfaction left.
What kind of 'new/old' techniques, mentioned above, can be made hot?

Erik

[Rick Sacks]

Although the vertical grain old growth blasts with more uniformity and speed, and I still have access to it, I prefer some of the flatter cuts with birds eye. I enjoy following the grain and the curves and bumps and trying to exaggerate what happens in nature. I enjoy reading the grain and going with it rather than manipulating it to do what I want. When we first started doing these in the early seventies we just used the tight vertical stuff, then I saw Walter Methner intentionally using knots and had to alter my opinions. He had so much more interest and texture than anyone else was getting and then found paint techniques that further enhanced the knots. The flatter grains blast a bit slower than the tight stuff though.

PS. HDU is not legal to use in the historic districts here.

[Billy Pickett]

...Erick, for your blasting also check the people who make head stones for cemeterys.
...and regarding hand lettering, even if you are still learning, It is always FUN to do! (well, for me anyway.) It's a mechanical skill that (almost) anybody can learn, like typing or playing a guitar. And the more you do it, the better you will get.
The origins of all of the 'basic' letterstyles (like serif Roman or scripts) are the result of brush or pen manipulations and what the tool wants to naturally do with paint on it.

[Kent Smith]

Erik, on some points, I agree with your father. That is, what counts is the design and the durable finished product, not the technique of getting there. My Dad was always experimenting to find a more practical and profitable way to produce signs as have I over the last 53 years. I am all for using tools of any type which help you be more profitable and to utilize your time to your advantage. Besides that, many vinyls last longer than paints, even two component urethanes. Having said that, there is no better way to get the feel of letter construction and how to use letters to improve your message, than hand lettering. As Billy says, some of the characteristics of a letter were formed by the brush or pen and simply digitized for the machines to use. Carl Rohrs was explaining to a class once that in order to know how to properly change or enhance a letter, you mush know first how to make it properly. We all see so many layouts that have the fonts distorted beyond what should be done, just to fit a message in the space. I you understand the character of a letter, you would not begin to just distort a line of copy for expedicious purposes. I also find from a standpoint of economics, some types of lettering are handlettered faster and more economically than printing or cutting vinyl.