Welcome to The Hand Lettering Forum!
This is an interactive Bulletin Board on the topics of Sign making, design, fabrication, History, old Books and of coarse Letterheads, Keepers of the craft. The Hand Lettering Forum features links to resources, sign art history, techniques, and artists profiles. Learn more about Letterheads at https://theletterheads.com. Below you'll see Mchat has been added as a live communication portal for trial, and the Main forum Links are listed below.

Protective Clear Coat for Gold Leaf?: Reverse Glass

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

Post Reply
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
Contact:

Protective Clear Coat for Gold Leaf?: Reverse Glass

Post by Mike Jackson »

Hello all,
I received this note in my email today.
I have not done a window gold job in many years and have not done many in the first place.... come to find out that Chromatic no longer makes the Clear Overcoat Varnish part # 4320003 for clear coating over the edge of the gold. As well, I have come to find that Chromatic has merged with One Shot...and the rep recommends a substitute of Clear Speed Dry UV Acrylic #4005 by One Shot....

As I talked to Noel Weber yesterday... he recommends to stay away from an acrylic and use a non yellowing synthetic varnish....but, he still has Chromatic left over that he would use....

What product would you recommend I use to have the 1/16th" clear varnish overlay on a window job that is over the top of two walk in doors? There is no color outline, just the gold.... You look slightly up over the doors and the ceiling is all painted black....so it looks like the glass is painted black behind the gold.... To back up the gold, I used an old tube of that ochre back up stuff i bought years ago from Esoteric.

Please let me know and thanks,
John Moschioni
Most of us probably still have Chromatic clear in our bins and have not had to solve the new problem. Anyone have an answer for John?

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
John Studden
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:40 am

Gold Leaf Varnish

Post by John Studden »

If the lettering is over a door I would not bother to varnish it at all, It's always the first thing to go. With good back-up & hardener ther is really no need. It has been several years since I clear coated a Gold job on site.
The ones I have done recently with Dave MacDonald were the same way,
& they always look better in my opinion.........Ther may be a reason for it in states with high humidity (East Coast) or, careless window cleaners, it's the constant squeegee action & abrasive cleaners that ruin most gold jobs,but in places like california they last equally as long with no varnish, just put a "no squeegee" sticker on the back of the job. I have seen several good jobs where the varnish has all but disappeared but the rest is still there, that does not say much for the varnish. This will no doubt cause arguments (I hope).....................John Studden
John Studden
Valencia Signs, California
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
Posts: 1705
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:02 pm
Location: Jackson Hole, WY
Contact:

Post by Mike Jackson »

John, and the rest,

I still have one of Rick Glawson's old yellow catalogs here (a great reference).
He says:
W-W Window Spar - A special varnish made expressly for clear coating gold work on reverse glass. Pale amber in color, it dries in 10 minutes.
Bulletin Spar - The same properties as W-W yet a little heavier bodied. It's my favorite for clearing reverse work. Use as the hardning protion when mising embossing damar for a faster set-up time on small jobs.
You might consider calling Rick's old place. 310-549-6622. I hear they are still in business. See if they still have either or both products. Ron at Letterhead Sign Supply might still have some of the old stock, too. I have a couple of cans I got from Steven Parrish's studio a long time ago.

Also, try looking over the Hard to Find Sign Supplies page.
http://www.theletterheads.com/supplies/index.htm
Check out Mark's Supply and Mann Bros. They sell a lot of oddball supplies, many of which are not sold in normal Sign Supply houses anymore.

Good luck,
Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
BruceJackson
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Post by BruceJackson »

I didn't have access to these products in the first place, but it's of no matter because there are any number of traditional varnishes that do the job well.
Usually I just use a clear oil-based varnish. It's essentially like your one-shot enamel paint, but without the pigments. Sometimes, on a small job I will just use the quick gold size as a varnish. I haven't seen any problem with it after several years.

I would definitely not use any sort of acrylic. Nor would I use a polyurethane clear such as the timber furniture finishes. I don't trust their adhesion over time.
Brian the Brush UK
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:19 pm
Location: Yorkshire, England, UK
Contact:

Post by Brian the Brush UK »

Hi gang,
If the work has been backed up with an enamel paint then I agree with John and don't bother with the varnish as it might breakdown anyway, if you are having difficulty finding a clear varnish and still want to apply that protective coat then I think a clear goldsize will work well inplace of the varnish, I have used it in the past and it works well. I have also mixed clear goldsize with enamel colours in the past when signwriting commercial vehicles to add more 'stick' to the paint and it works very well.
Brian.
www.brian-the-brush.com
With a stroke more imagination.
Roger R.
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 9:06 pm
Location: Bessemer City, NC 28016

Post by Roger R. »

All the gold leaf signs in this part of the country were all sealed with spar varnish. I have always had good luck with spar varnish, as have all the other lettering folks around here. I still have a small street # over a door that I done at least 40 years ago and is still in good shape. Just remember to outline about 1/32" around letters. The amber tint in spar don't show in these thin outlines. It just appears to be clear. Good luck.




Roger
Kent Smith

clear overcoat varnish

Post by Kent Smith »

I agree absolutely that acrylics and two components will not work on glass. Glass expands and contracts so a varnish must also expand with it. Acrylics are not water resistant on glass either. If your final coat is a lettering enamel or a hardened lettering enamel, then the final varnish is not necessary. Real spar varnishes work well in this application but wear away and must be replaced. The modified clear overcoat varnish was formulated specifically to fill the need for varnishing gold work on glass.

I just spoke with the plant manager at OneShot and it is not that they discontinued the Clear Overcoat varnish, they just never made any after the purchase of Chromatic. We as a group of gilders have not demanded it or our distributors have not requested it from them, or? He will investigate and get back to me after he has reviewed the formula and considered the need for the product. AKZO had discontinued the smaller sizes and I wonder if the product would be viable again for all of us if it was packaged in half and quarter pints. If there is enough interest, I will forward that on to them.
Post Reply