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Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

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Jim Harris
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Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Jim Harris »

I have a customer that has asked me how to gild on sand blasted foam. The size of the outdoor sign will be 2' X 3'. The sign will have 14 letters and a 1/4" border around the outside that needs to be gilded. He will be using our "Golden Leaf Products" 23.75K Gold Leaf for reference.

I assume that oil gilding with fast size would be the way to go?
What is the best material to seal the foam to prep for the gold leaf?

My customer has never done this before and is probably asking for trouble. If there are any videos out there on YouTube that you might know of? Any information or guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Jim Harris Golden Leaf Products
Phone: 360 980 1855
Web: www.goldenleafproducts.com
email: jim.harris@goldenleafproducts.com
joe cieslowski
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by joe cieslowski »

Jim,

Assuming you are talking HDU, prime first wit a high build primer, usually laytex. Sand between coats....2 or 3 may be necessary. Also, make sure the surface is dust free first.....gotta get all the dust outa the pores or the paint won't stick.

Two or three topcoats of either laytex or oil paint (high gloss).

I'd use the slow dry or 12hr size since he's a rookie. Apply a film.....NOT a coating. It's an adheasive, not a coat of paint. Wait for the propper "tack". Do a search for "tack test". Here's how I teach it...

https://handletteringforum.com/forum ... =tack+test

He can use either "surface" gold or "patent". He'll need a tip if he is going with loose. also a mop of some sort.

This is just the basics.......ot's of folks have their own methods but this is basic process.

Most important.....test, test and test again.

Good Luck!

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
erik winkler
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by erik winkler »

I would cerntainly NOT learn my client how to gild MY work!
I would do it myself.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Kent Smith
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Kent Smith »

Jim, I am just taking a break from such a project. I would prime two or three coats of the high build acrylic primer with light sanding between. 600 grit final sand with water will give you a good base. I prefer oil size as it gives you a better open time and cushion for a brighter gild.
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Robare M. Novou »

Erik, Jim's customer is a signmaker/gilder, not the person buying the sign.

Jim sells gold leaf, and other gilding related products to signmakers and gilders.

So his "customers" are people doing the gilding of a sign, and then selling the sign to their client (the person who ordered the sign).

Sometimes, or maybe a lot of times, Jim's customers ask him for his advise on gilding and gilding products...of which he cheerfully gives. If not, he comes here for advice that he can pass on.

When I first read his post, I thought the same thing...a customer wants to do his own gilding? And wants me to teach him.
I don't think so.

And Kent, thanks for mentioning "Acrylic" primer...and not Latex. You can elaborate on that some more if you want.

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
Jerry Berg
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Jerry Berg »

I agree with Kent, only after the priming is done I letter over the letters or areas to be gilded with lettering enamel, then the slow size. Jim's gold is good quality and his prices are great too.
Kent Smith
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Kent Smith »

Robare, you should not encourage me, but here goes:

Naturally the acrylic primer I prefer is the Chromatic High Build number 1010 which I helped to develop. Having said that, there are others out there and specifically Precision Board has some excellent primers. As always, the best thing about the acrylics is that they have great intercoat adhesion properties. That means that not only does it adhere superiorly to the HDU, all types of paints adhere well to it. With the porosity of the HDU, the thick body of the High Build acrylic allows it to rapidly and easily fill in that porosity. On 15lb HDU it takes two or 3 coats while only one or two on 18lb. As opposed to solvent based fillers and filling primers, the waterborne acrylic works better in one specific way. When the water evaporates, it wicks out, allowing the primer to stay in the porous holes. With a solvent evaporation, it tends to burst out, creating a crater which has a hole in the center and a shoulder which must be sanded down and repriming is needed. After the second or third coat of the High Build, a light/wet sanding with 600 grit will polish the primer to a slick, smooth finish which is still receptive to topcoats. This slick finish is excellent under gold since the leaf tends to light up any imperfections beneath it. I just finished redoing some signs for another sign company who had used a solvent based polyester primer which not only left a rough finish but the solvents were still outgassing and bubbling the topcoat and size he had applied. The High Build primer by itself gave me a smooth enough base to gild over and sealed the prior coats.

Jerry, I used to prefer to apply enamel before sizing as well. I now find that the primer is a much better base for the size. I am much more confident about the size adhering well to the primer than it does to cured enamel. There is also a good color contrast of the yellow tinted size over the clean white of the primer. This makes the additional coat of enamel unecessary.
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Robare M. Novou »

Thanks Kent!

You have refreshed my memory and enlightened those out there that are about to prime their first chunk of urethane.

I, like you prefer to prime urethane with acrylic primers.

But when it comes to MDO plywood, I still prefer the oil based primers.


So Kent, tell me and the rest of us, when you are going to come out with your paint and painting reference book?

As you can tell, there is a need for such an item. And who better than you to do it than you?

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
erik winkler
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by erik winkler »

Yes, and put a Dutch translation in there as well!
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Kent Smith
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Kent Smith »

Well, the book stalled about two years ago because the current sales of this type of text have dropped so low, it is nearly impossible to recover the costs of production. This issue would make a Dutch translation even more impractical I fear.

As to MDO, I prefer the regular viscosity acrylic for two important reasons. First is the intercoat adhesion superiority, not to mention excellent substrate adhesion (including ply edges). Second is that unlike old based primers, acrylics are permeable. That means that any moisture in the plys, current or future, will migrate through the primer and not push it off the surface. By the way, enamels are also permeable.
joe cieslowski
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by joe cieslowski »

Kent,

Could you please give me some guidence on drying times. I know they can vary widley depending on conditions. Is there a technique that can be employed universally to determine when each coat is dried properly? Is there an ideal combination of temprature and air movement along with humidity?

Thanks in advance.

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Robare M. Novou »

I knew a retired sign painter that had the same problem you did Joe.

He was one of the best sign painters I knew, A true old school sign man.

Once in a while he would ask me questions on mixing and using paint.

I would give him the answer, and he would swear I was Kent Smith.

He marveled at the information I would give him.

One day, he asked one question to many, and I took him aside and I asked him a question....

"Norm" I said....."Have you ever read the directions on the back of the can?"

"Why no, do you think I should"

"Norm.... that's were I get the answers to give to you."

"No kidding...really!"

"Yes Norm, and no I'm not kidding."

Norm explained that he never considered to read past the label on the front of the can.
After that, Norms world expanded....to include the label on the back of the can.

His questions on paint became fewer and fewer.

A few years later he walked off into the sunset.

I miss that guy and all his curious questions....Rest in Peace old man.

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
erik winkler
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by erik winkler »

Norm was the bear and you the fox?...
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
joe cieslowski
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Location: east canaan ct
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by joe cieslowski »

Thanks Robare,

Unlike your friend, I'm quite anal about reading directions.....usually to a fault. I'm also quite production oriented so I get irritated when I find myself wasting time.......not impatient tho. If it takes 3 hours or 3 days....no problem but I'm not going to wait 3 days when only 3 hrs are enough.
The vast majority of the signs I do now are small house and property markers. I have a shelf system where i can pile up 8-10 at a time with good air circu;ation around each piece at the exhaust end of a de-humidifier with a small heater (when needed) at a temp of 62 degrees f. This works very well in 99% of cases.....which ain't bad odds.

I asked the question, not so much for my own personal problem (1% ?), but I thought a general rule of thumb or a technique some one might know would be a logical piece of information that fit quite naturally at the end of this thread (I think) as i cannot recall any instructions for determining the proper drying time for any paint product I've used. Most give a general guide such as "fast drying" or "wait 6 hours between coats (depending on conditions)" etc.

Maybe I just missed something along the way........like saying "acrylic" before laytex (which I always use). Yes, the devil IS in the details! LOL

Thanks,

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Robare M. Novou »

Joe, it seems with each post you make, you give more details into your situation.

From what I have read so far, you have a drying issue, and you read the labels on the can.

And....you stack your boards to dry. Which may be one of the problems.

Stacking boards delays the drying....not enough oxygen is getting to the paint, out gassing fumes, and the board overhead are putting up a force field to repel any oxygen trying to get in.

A board above a painted board in a stacking type of set up, is like having a lid on a can of paint. How do you expect the paint in the can to dry if there's a lid on it?

You may also need a higher fan setting, and a higher air temperature.

You may also need to put more space between those stacked boards.

Currently Joe, how many inches between stacked boards?

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
joe cieslowski
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by joe cieslowski »

OK,

I'll try to keep this simple....

I don't have a problem with drying.

Each board is on a shelf with plenty of space between each piece. The shelves even have an open grill pattern so all sides of the piece are exposed to drying.

I posted the question as a logical final step to the methods described by eveyone who posted above. It is a question that is asked quite often. Describing how I do it may be different than others and I wanted to open a discussion to hear how others may do it.........so maybe we all can learn from each other.

So, Roberge, why don't you tell us how you do it and how, in the end, you know when your paint has dried sufficiently to avoid any problems.

Thank you,

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Kent Smith
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Kent Smith »

Hmmm...an age old quesiton about drying that has no definitive answer. Certainly there are things one can do to improve paint drying. Mild air movement is number one although a strong explosion proof exhaust situation is the best to remove spent solvents. When stacking, consider a 1% slant so that heavy solvents like water and mineral spirits will literally "fall" off the surface. Note that heavy solvents drop and don't really evaporate upwards well. Each type of paint has its own dryer blend which reacts with the components, ambient oxygen, temperature, and air movement. The cross linking of the components resulting in a cured paint film varies with the type of resin and what it takes chemically to turn a liquid into a protective 2 mil film.

Waterborne coatings take anywhere from 20 minutes to 48 hours to dry with a variable cure time but should be cured in 10 days.

Single component solvent (oil based) coatings take anywhere from 1 hour to 6 days to dry with a typical cure time of 14 days but can take as long as 6 months with long oils and too many after market additives.

Two (plus) component coatings take anywhere from 1 hour to 48 hours to dry with cure times up to 40 days.

While I certainly approve of label reading, since I have written plenty, the reason there are no specifics as to drying should be obvious by what I have just said. No compnay wants to open themselves to complaints that the paint did not dry as indicated. There are just too many variables.

The best advice is to make your own "step wedge" for each of the coatings you commonly use. Note the coating, ambient temperature and humidity, app process (brush, spray etc.) and any additives. Mark the wedge with incriments of time at which you check the dryness, top appearance etc. To check for drying without touching, cup your hand over the surface and you should be able to detect evaporation until it is dry. As to curing, the surface should be elastic to gentle pushing until it is cured.

Note that often, different colors will dry differently.
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Gilding on Sand Blasted Foam

Post by Robare M. Novou »

When one learns about priming and painting, one also learns about the variables in materials and drying times, not just by reading the labels, but also through experience.

The more you do, the more you know. And it sounds like you know what you are doing.

As you and I know, and as Kent has stated, there are variables, maybe too many. But still there are factors that can put things in our favor, especially when it comes to paint drying.

Heat and Humidity are two factors which you can control. The warmer and dryer it is, the faster the primer and paint will dry. This is usually the Idea setting for getting primer or paint to dry fast.

The colder and more humid it is, the slower the primer and paint will dry.

Also, the thickness of the coat of primer or paint is another factor in the drying process.

And then there's the material...not all wood is the same, some more porous than others.
The paint batches are also not always the same either.

I also think altitude is another factor, I seem to remember reading that somewhere.

To achieve your "Ideal" settings, you may even need a "Control Room".

So is there an ideal combination of temperature and air movement along with humidity?

There most definitely is a "Range" in which the ideal combination of temp., air, and humidity produce the results you want.
If there is a primer and or paint product that goes off like a light switch at the time you want it to, I am not aware of it.

You could try infra red drying, like they do in some of the industrial settings.

Because of the variables, I like to give my primers and paints more than enough time to dry, but that's me.

But like you, I too look for an Ideal setting. So far, high heat and low humidity work best for me.

It may be up to you to do the experimenting and note taking so as to tweak your "Ideal Conditions" to your satisfaction.

You may have to be the one in this situation, to do the research as to what works best for achieving "Constant" results.

For now, we all go by the words....it will be dry by tomorrow....I hope.

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
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