Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

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DAVE SMITH
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Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Mon May 03, 2010 3:45 pm

I have been trying to find a paint that can be fired into glass at high tempratures while bending the glass into a curve. I made some panels in the past but was always left with a slight translusent finish and some break down and flaking.
I found a company here in this country that will make paints for this type of work and poss acid resist single etch.
I tried a stained glass powder paint which works but is too messy and leaves halos of frosting to the edge of letters. This new paint can be screened just like Fine Gold enamel and has an opaque finish once screened. Pat also put me onto a company that makes a paint simalar to this one but I am still waiting for a sample. This paint works very well with vinyl masks as you will see in these photos attached. I have a glass sign 3' x 4' to make for a gents hairdressers and it needs to be curved , my options are only screening due to the very fine detail but with this method it is poss to achieve permanent paint kiln fired into glass plus no breakdown of paint when gilding .Its downside is that you are left with an edge so gilding with ivory soap is recomended so that the gold floats into and fills the slight ridge.

I used some artwork that was sent to me by I think Danny Barronian a couple of years ago. Seemed apropriate to try it out on this design.

I forgot to add that the letters Fine Gold and Department were acid etched over brunswick black stipple and the Surface gilding text was hand signwritten with a clear varnished line leaving a glow line to shine at the edge

Dave
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Mon May 03, 2010 3:54 pm

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Patrick Mackle
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Patrick Mackle » Mon May 03, 2010 4:29 pm

Dave,
I was thinking about this process after we talked and envisioned how it might play out as well as doing the gilding it all in one.
After applying the black glass enamel ink, you should try spraying in some gold chloride in the open lettering areas after you pull the masking. (you might not even have to worry if the gold spray partially mists over the black enamel coating.)
That way while bending the glass in the mold, the enamel ink will fuse and the gold will fire into the letters all in one shot. Very permanent and you would not have to deal with the raised letter ridges and gold leaf problem.
The only thing that may have to be done differently might be a need to do two firings. First firing would be to fire the glass flat with only the black glass enamel so that it is completely set into the surface, then spray the gold chloride. Then on the second firing place the piece into the mold and bend and fire the gold onto the glass.
You would ONLY have to do the process in two firing if there was any conflict in trying to fire the "wet" black enamel and the "wet" gold in one go.
Hey, as long as there is a good sharp line without the two flowing together, doing it all in one go would be really great!
Pat

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Mon May 03, 2010 5:12 pm

Hi Pat.
I was thinking along these same lines only yesterday Pat. I ordered some gold chloride last week to try a second test ,I agree the first coat would need to be heated and then a second firing with the gold.
Will keep you posted on that one. Erik also mentioned some other paint to try which I think is the same as tracing black which is used for stained glass windows.

Dave

Wayne Osborne
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Wayne Osborne » Mon May 03, 2010 6:16 pm

Blimey!- Are you guys Sign-men or Alchemists???
Thanks for bringing true genius to my desktop. i'll be watching this one closely

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Tue May 04, 2010 10:11 am

Probably more on the nut side than genius Wayne, I would say that Pat is the genius though.
Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Tue May 04, 2010 11:07 am

I agree with Pat here Dave.
This is exactly how we were taught in the czech school.
Eventhough Pat probably allready knew it.....
1. Kiln fire the black.
2. Paint in the all the other colors, as long as they do not touch eachother fire this in the kiln.
3. Paint in the remaining colors and fire these up also.
4. Last firing: goldchloride.

If I am correct, the different goldchloride's (super gloss, gloss, 12krt, 24 krt etc.) available have some different firing temperatures needed.
Look for the instructions on the bottle.

I have to say that the goldchloride that is made for firing is different then the goldchloride that you use with angelgilding.

This reminds me, that I have to buy some gold 999 krt to make some goldchloride myself....
Testing testing testing.... will we ever be finished?

One more thing, if you will use the goldchloride, try to airbrush it, because even the best brushes will leave brushmarks....
This technique will need a removeable liquid glass paint resist.

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Tue May 04, 2010 11:30 am

Thanks for your help Erik. I airbrushed the silverstain onto the glass which leaves a better finish than the brush marks . this technique seems to be a simalar procedure. When I used the Gold Chloride before it worked well with a brush, but I was thinking of airbrushing it for this job. I understand the difference between the two golds and what they do but firing it twice makes sense. It may work in one go .
Thanks
Dave

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Wed May 05, 2010 2:36 am

These pics show the glass with 24crt gold leaf and 16 crt goldleaf,surface gilding has a hand varnished centre line which was water gilded afterwards.
Dave
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erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Wed May 05, 2010 10:56 am

Congratulations looks great Dave!
So smooth and shinny, but then again very delicate in is design.
I love it!
Could you explain me why you took so much effort to get these new steps working.
What in these steps is easier then the way you did the Eigenbrot panels?
Image

Would be nice to hear what the teacher learned.....

(By the way, how did you get your name so small in the bottomcorner?
Did you scratched it in the black paint?)

Your student here,
Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Wed May 05, 2010 11:56 am

Erik.
Thanks ,the difference is in the paint used on these panels is Nazdars apoxy black ink which works very well but will not stand the high temprature while bending glass. I needed a paint that could be screen printed, but also laying down a good density of black pigment that would stand heat and be part of the glass.
I remember talking with Rick about fine printed black lines and sliding them off a waxed background into position on concaved glass tablets (glass signs) a bit like a water slide transfer. There were problems trying to lay it into an area that curved at different angles so I thought this would be an easier option by printing the work in black lines on flat glass and then slumping the work. My biggest hurdle has been tracking down the paint ,they say this stuff can be printed which is what I was looking for yet it holds well in a brush also. 10 different colours can be mixed as well. :D

My name was scratched with a metal point . one more point to make ,positioning the vinyl mask on the curved signs (Eigonbrot) was difficult due to expansion of the glass so the letters had to be shortened over the full length of the design all equally

Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Wed May 05, 2010 12:33 pm

Perfect.
I can understand the vinyl mask positioning problems.
Recently I ruined my 3x4 feet 7 toned etching panel due to the fact that my Gerber plotter could not hold its origin.

Your 16krt looks so white, allmost silvered. Is it me?....
Last edited by erik winkler on Thu May 06, 2010 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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Jerry Berg
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Jerry Berg » Wed May 05, 2010 12:56 pm

Very nice Dave. I sure wouldn't mind having my own kiln for things like this.
I have access to one but need to use it sparingly so I don't become a nusence.
I recently bought a new airbrush and the person whom I bought it from knows I
like to do glass signs. This person alerted me to glass paint that is made for use
with heat, in an oven or kiln. I will have to ask again what the name of it was and
do some research on it. It was nice seeing those Eigonbrot pieces again also.

Patrick Mackle
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Patrick Mackle » Wed May 05, 2010 1:18 pm

Dave,
That piece turned out sweet. Now you have to try it without leaf gilding and try using the metal chlorides. Wham-Bam, like baking cookies 8)

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Fri May 07, 2010 12:03 pm

Thanks Jerry.
Would be interesting to see what kind of paint your friend is talking about,probably simalar material.
Just had some paint delivered from a company that Pat put me onto ,smells identical to the stuff I already have.

looks like Test time next week again.
Dave

Wayne Osborne
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Wayne Osborne » Sun May 09, 2010 11:53 am

Nice outcome Dave-

That paint smells the same....... But what does it Taste like? :mrgreen:

erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Sun May 09, 2010 12:53 pm

Dave,

I have an other nice test for you:
What will happen if you mica etch parts that painted black and kiln fired with this paint?

Today I mica etched 11 glass pieces which I screened with two component black epoxy ink......
The ink totally failed and came of like a breeze :cry:
Epoxy ink can hold with silvering chemicals, but HF is a totally different story ofcourse.
I thought so, but maybe I am just to empirical :roll:
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Mon May 10, 2010 4:24 am

Erik. I forgot to tell you that I tried that a while back and it totally failed.
was it a job you were making.|?
Dave

erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Mon May 10, 2010 4:31 am

Yes it is the job of 11 panels.
They all failed.....
I can not do anything but laugh about it, because crying will not help haha.
Just did a new run of screening on top of the oher, almost no ghostmarks...

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Sat May 15, 2010 7:57 pm

It is good that you can Laugh about it Erik. I came close to crying this morning after knocking the corner of a cut glass panel on a metal handle.
I Lost some concentration for a split second when I was reaching for a wet cloth and banged it write on the tip of a corner ,lost just a small piece the size of an ant. I at to put the piece down just to get over it as it had taken a long time to make to get to this stage. will be more careful in the future.....

I Attached a little sign for a customer who has a restaurant in a place called Totnes here in Devon,I hope to also make a sign for the front of here shop soon.
This piece sits inside in a corner of a room. Used one of Larry's styles for the bottom text and not sure on the top one but tweaked it around slightly to make it work with the design.
Dave
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erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Sun May 16, 2010 9:25 am

I bumped two pieces already.... one is lost, one has a plinck that will disapear in the frame.... :?
What is this with your ratio of work, do you have some chinese people working in that garage of yours?! :wink:
I am surely not that fast.

I noticed that the the piece you made is very small, did you use a vinyl mask for the black paint or was it screenprinted?

Have you ever noticed that the two component expoxy inks do not adhere the same to different krt of goldleaf?
23,75krt no problem, but with the 12krt the epoxy ink came of at some points and revealed the goldleaf again.....
Just repainted those spots and will try it again.

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Wayne Osborne
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Wayne Osborne » Sun May 16, 2010 6:19 pm

Dave- that's just beautiful man :D

Jerry Berg
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Jerry Berg » Mon May 17, 2010 9:09 pm

Those are very nice Dave, I like your layout. Thanks for posting!

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Tue May 18, 2010 2:35 am

Thanks lads .I Made this one last week again ,some drunk kicked the door in and gave me a gilding job.
Dave
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erik winkler
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by erik winkler » Tue May 18, 2010 3:15 am

Don't you just love your job sometimes?
I saw the other windows in real when I was visitng Dave and they looked soooooo good!
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Miles Cullinane
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Miles Cullinane » Tue May 18, 2010 5:27 am

Lovely Stuff Dave,

Is there a lemon gold in-between the white and deep gold in the 'Joanna's' piece, it looks blended like you taught in the workshop I did with you but I can't tell.

Have any pictures of these curved pieces in their final location, Would love to see them.

your stuff is a marvel to see. you'll have to do some curved pieces for the miniature shopfront.

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Wed May 19, 2010 12:08 pm

Hi Miles.
Thanks I still need to paint that up,but yes the glass curved would look good in there.
How are you doing are you keeping busy? I was in Waterford about 5 weeks ago nice old town is that far from you?
Dave

Roderick Treece
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Roderick Treece » Wed May 19, 2010 12:52 pm

Hi Davey !

I have been reshearhing kilns and I was wondering a few things. I don't want to be to limited by size but as you know the bigger the more $$$
1) So what do you think a good general size ID would be ?

I found one that will do 20" x 30" square.

Does it matter if is a clam shell style
or
load down in style?

Roderick
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Patrick Mackle
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by Patrick Mackle » Wed May 19, 2010 1:10 pm

Rodrick,
You might also check out the EVENHEAT line of kilns. I have 3 bath tub style kilns, and 2 hexagon style.
These Evenheat kilns have run trouble free for me over the years and look as good as new.
I like their brand of computer that monitors the schedule of the firings.
Consider the "depth' of the kiln you purchase in regards to the type or depth of bending you plan to do and the level of the side elements.
Pat

DAVE SMITH
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Re: Heat Bent Glass Signs with Paint

Post by DAVE SMITH » Fri May 21, 2010 4:04 pm

Rod.
Size for your kiln would be around 5ft x 4 ft ,I find this big enough for the work I need to do but you never know what could come in the future so allways
keep that in mind when buying a kiln. I have seen them 15 ft long and 8 ft wide ther are probably bigger ones out there also.
My kiln is electric and is controlled by a computer reading ,easy to use and very accurate. The kiln I have came from Kilncare in Stoke on trent UK.

Good luck

Dave

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