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What are friends for ?

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

Moderators: Ron Percell, Mike Jackson, Danny Baronian

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Roderick Treece
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Location: San deigo Calif
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What are friends for ?

Post by Roderick Treece »

Having a web site leaves you open for some very interesting inquiries from people all over the world. Yesterday I recieved an e-mail from a guy about a really great project that he would like a bid on. Well it was a very nice design for a set of custom mirrors with art work and signage on them. The designer let it slip that one of my friends that just happens to do glass signs has all ready done other work in the house and has already bid on the project. I told him he already had the right guy for the job and stick with him. He told me the owner was old school and wanted 3 bids. At that point I told him to tell the client he had the best guy and left it at that.

Go figuire ?

Roderick
erik winkler
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by erik winkler »

I just hate people who waste my time with asking controling bids.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Mike Jackson »

Roderick,
You could go one step farther and actually give them a bid—but find out the friend's bid and double it.

M. Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
DAVE SMITH
Posts: 1213
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:12 am
Location: ENGLAND

Re: What are friends for ?

Post by DAVE SMITH »

Now that would be a very good move Mike.
Dave
Anthony Bennett
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Location: England
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Anthony Bennett »

I third Mike's suggestion
Robare M. Novou
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 11:18 am
Location: Milwaukee
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Robare M. Novou »

I fourth it!

Me and another sign shop here in town used to play that game.

Every time I would go for a visit, he would say how I lost another bid because I was too high...(the bid, not me).

He got the jobs and I didn't...that's OK though, cause I did not do the type of work he did.

He eventually went out of business...don't most low-ballers ?

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
Mark Summers
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Location: Frisco, Co
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Mark Summers »

I agree also. Even in these times lowballing will come back to bite
you, always. These times will not be around forever and yes it
is tough at times. This low bidding has a snowball effect also.
When you do this work for x-amount and he tells his friends who
did the (cheap work), guess what, New Friends that are expecting
the same. Once you are known for inexpensive work this is a hard
hole to dig out of.

Mark
erik winkler
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by erik winkler »

Ok now it is Winkies time to give his opinion.
When I read Mike his reply I thought: "This must be one of his well overthought signcraft magazine subject, so maybe I should think it over for a few days to absorb the true English words before I missinterpreted them".
Eventhough I agree that it is a good (funny) trick, I still have my serious doubts...
In this case I would get a name as "an absurd costly firm, who allways ask for double prices".
Furthermore in this time of internet, people will allways find a sucker who does it for less then costprice.
Sometimes it is just an underbidder, because he/she hopes for a new bussiness contact and sometimes it is merely a faulty made calculation of work.

For me, I just ask my price, which is 1+1+ some extra Winkyfee= Above average signmakers price.

Tell me if I see it wrong or not.

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
Larry White
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:18 am

Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Larry White »

Sure....I'll have a go...

I think everyone's point of view has some merit.

For me, I like to hold to my price, even if business
is slow. I have yet to have anyone tell me they
went somewhere else to have the job done....
doesn't mean they don't though.

It's not out of the question to offer a lower price
when you're slow and starting to worry... but what I
usually do is quote it at my standing price, then offer
some percent discount if ordered in the next 30 days.

My biggest competition is window film. I suppose some
clients decide not to do the work altogether.

The higher end clients typically want the real thang, but
even some of them will bend to save a buck...and go
vinyl.

Times change, most folks change with them...
a few hold outs never do.

.....but I don't know.....

-BB


.
joe cieslowski
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by joe cieslowski »

I'm sorta in this situation right now......it's happened before but it is rare.

I was asked to design and price a sign for a rather large animal hospital and their feed and gift shop. It's a larger (size wise) sign that I am no longer comfortable making. Soooooo, I go into town to the "real" sign shop and have them give me a quote (They do do wholesale to the trade). I'll speak tomorrow with the folks at the vets office and lay everything out. They may or may not go "shopping". If they do shop, they will find (at least locally) that my prices are very competitive.

Funny part was, I sorta got a pep talk on the way out the door......go get em!!!! :lol:

Joe
Makin Chip$ and Havin Fun!
Mike Jackson
Site Admin
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by Mike Jackson »

If I understood the initial thread, Roderick wasn't wanting to bid against his friend. He suggested the client use his friend because he was well qualified and already bidding. Since the buyer was REQUIRED to get more bids, the idea of submitting a high bid would be to help make sure his friend got the job. An extra high bid shouldn't cause future problems except maybe with this client he apparently doesn't want. I guess the client could go around telling people Roderick was out of sight on his pricing, but I don't think that would be a long term issue. Sometimes customers like this take the low bid and sometimes they take the middle one, so making sure the friend was below Roderick's high price would be the major issue. Roderick could also bid small amount higher, but that could still backfire if the client was taking the middle bid and if someone else had an even higher bid.

If Roderick didn't present a price and if the client still had to get two more bids, there is a good chance they could find a couple willing to give work away to get the job, leaving the friend as the high bidder.

Back in the day, we always had a policy of leaving other sign shop's customers alone and not contact them to try to get their work. With that said, if their customer came to us on their own we normally went ahead and offered a price, figuring the customer must have had a reason to move away from their other shop. Sometimes I'd call the other shop (if a good friend) to let them know their customer was shopping around. At that point, the other shop could tell me to be careful because the customer was a dead beat or hard to work with, etc. Sometimes, they would tell me to bid and even tell me about how much they had been charging to make sure I got the jobs if they weren't going to be getting their work anymore.

The tight economy changes some of the rules I guess. We've had a few instances where another shop goes after one of our regular customers with a price just below ours. That's frustrating but not illegal.

I just threw out the concept of bidding high to take the next step to help the friend get the job, especially when the client says they had to get three "bids".

Mike Jackson
Mike Jackson / co-administrator
Golden Era Studios
Vintage Ornamental Clip art
Jackson Hole, WY

Photography site:
Teton Images
Jackson Hole photography blog:
Best of the Tetons
erik winkler
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:48 pm
Location: Amsterdam Netherlands
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Re: What are friends for ?

Post by erik winkler »

Mike Jackson wrote:Back in the day, we always had a policy of leaving other sign shop's customers alone and not contact them to try to get their work. With that said, if their customer came to us on their own we normally went ahead and offered a price, figuring the customer must have had a reason to move away from their other shop. Sometimes I'd call the other shop (if a good friend) to let them know their customer was shopping around. At that point, the other shop could tell me to be careful because the customer was a dead beat or hard to work with, etc. Sometimes, they would tell me to bid and even tell me about how much they had been charging to make sure I got the jobs if they weren't going to be getting their work anymore.

The tight economy changes some of the rules I guess. We've had a few instances where another shop goes after one of our regular customers with a price just below ours. That's frustrating but not illegal.

Mike Jackson
I totally agree.

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
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