Just Another Rant

[Keith Browning]

I have this repeat customer that just about works me to death. But he's fun to watch, he reminds me of the doctor on The Simpsons. He is constantly calling wanting banners and signs CHEAP! What he does is he'll ask for quotes for 4 or 5 different items. When I get them all together the fun starts, he tells me where I stand in the competition race and since he's also affiliated with a franchise he tells me how much they will charge him for similar products. I have to provide him with scale color comps so he can get his franchise to approve the work and we go back and forth over the prices for a couple of weeks before settling. And then he generally orders 1 or 2 of the original 4 or 5 and puts the rest on hold. Of course he wants them by the end of the week. Even when we settle on a price he still (good naturedly) grumbles about how high I am. When I told him that I do good work he responds with "I know, I know, that's why I keep coming back and you always come through in a pinch." But, jeez, this guy works me to death over pennies. I know it's my fault for allowing it but...He even told me that I needed to be more competitive with the internet companies. This is something that I constantly get with my screen printing orders as well. Boy, I miss the days when I got a paycheck from someone else who dealt with all the headaches, all I had to do was show up and paint

[Mike Jackson]

Keith,
First, let me suggest there are some customers worth trying to help out in a pinch and there are others I'd just as soon go away and penny pinch someone else. He sounds like one of them.

Second, I would never do a color comp for someone like that unless they paid me to do the color comp. I never want a customer using my own sketch to bid against me. I could go on and on about this topic, but it is basically cut and dry.

Third, You can solve this "give me a price for five" issue. All you have to do is say, "the panels are $155.00 each when ordered in groups of five or more at one time, or $200 each when ordered in quantities less than five. That will shut this game down in an instant. If he does go ahead and orders four, you might give him a little break, if desired.

If he still complains, suggest he go ahead and use those Internet competitors. By the time he pays fed-x fees, misses deadlines, and gets burned a few times, he will sing a different tune. If and when he comes back you can mold him back into a good customer, willing to pay the correct price and willing to give you a reasonable lead time. Otherwise, go fly fishing that day.

Mike Jackson

[Raymond Chapman]

What Mike said!!

No one can make you do any of those things without your permission. As long as you bend to accomodate he will keep on pushing. Fortunately, I don't have many of this type anymore. Some were at one time, but as soon as they tell me about someone else being cheaper, that is where I send them.

We are dealing now with a person who opened a business and then wanted sign work done. Of course, he is in a hurry because he knows how valuable signs are to the success of his business. He can't understand why we won't drop everything and jump on his job. After 40 years those types of emergencies don't keep me awake at night. Even though there are a dozen other shops in this area that could do his work, he wants us. He just has to wait his turn....stewing all the time. Every time he calls I tell him that there is no way that I can get his work done if I have to keep answering the phone.

Don't worry about the tire kickers that get away - they will cost you a lot more money than you can ever make from them.

[Larry White]

...here's a good one...

I had a guy calling me the other day to beat me up on my price for some expensive sandblasted pattern glass...

...the real kicker was, I had quoted him up front, he ordered the job, he picked it up and paid me... then called me back to complain about the price... good grief.... ...I guess he was just trying to get his moneys worth...

-LW

[Keith Browning]

Vicksburg is a relatively small to medium sized town I guess (pop. 27,500)and we have my shop which was founded in 1983, one older shop and the inevitable franchise shop. Competition is not really fierce but mainly price based. Not to mention that the franchise is owned by the local newspaper. Pricing has been one of my biggest concerns since buying this business. There always seems to be someone who will do it for less. And that is very popular with the customers. I feel like in order to get any orders I almost have to price it so low that I can hardly make anything. I guess overhead is a big concern as well but my building rent is VERY reasonable. I try to do quality work, what I envisioned when I bought the business was to try and carve out a high end niche. Quality design work, carved, sandblasted, airbrush effects, pictorals, etc. But usually find myself fighting over coroplast signs and "quickie" banners. It's been a tough experience. Trying to sell quality to people whose main concern seems to be 'can I get it for $40 and have it installed by Friday'. I don't mean to sound 'whiney' but W-H-I-N-E. Oh, and I see some of the most 'god awful' designs around but the customers seem to be oblivious, as long as it's cheap, it's okay.

[Mike Jackson]

Keith,
I always say "you will sell more tomorrow of what you did today"...meaning if you are selling a lot of cloroplast signs and cheap stuff, you develop that kind of customer base and are generally stuck there.

Turn that around, and chase the better clientelle to develp that market and you will end up selling better signs to better clients.

Our old sign and cards said "plain and fancy" (something we borrowed from Jim Pritchard in New Hampshire). We wanted to plant the seed that we could do the plain stuff, but we filled our show room and portfolio with the premium work. That is what we wanted our clients to know us for. If your portfolio and walls are covered with cheaper looking banners and panels, that is what they will think you are selling. We didn't want to appear snobby, but we also wanted to give off an atmosphere of quality over price. We didn't have a single plain sign in the showroom. We stayed busy for the entire nine years we owned the shop here in Jackson.

You are selling to the wrong crowd!

Also, you will someday learn that you cannot sell every sign to every customer, no matter how cheap they want it and how cheap you sell it. There is a satisfaction you get when you sell a nice job and deliver a nice job for a fair price. I also learned to be equally satisfied watching a pain in the butt, cheap customer walk out the door on their quest to find the cheapest sign in three counties. Even when they are walking out the door, be sure to say something like, "If you ever need a premium sign for a special project, please come back and let us have a chance at it".

Good luck,
Mike Jackson

[Raymond Chapman]

You may think that we are jumping all over you, but please receive this advice as one who has been there and done that.

Your only way to compete with the low-ballers is with design. There will always be someone who will do it cheaper, even if it means doing it less than the materials cost. Every town has junk (poorly designed) signs - there are no exceptions. In my opinion, there are also clients in every town that want first class work. If they know you do first class work (and you do consistently) they will search you out.

Again, Mike is on the right track...I should know, I copied what I do from him. Only put your best work on your showroom walls (you do have a showroom, right?) and the minute a prospective customer walks in the door they will know what kind of work you do. Some will turn around and walk out - they are not the ones you want to sell to.

It doesn't happen overnight. You have to be able to loose a bunch of jobs, but don't turn out low class work at a cheap price just to stay busy. We seldom do banners or magnetic signs or anything on coroplast, but when we do we get a fair price for them and each is uniquely designed.

I've always said that I don't want to do all the signs in town, just the good ones.

[cam bortz]

These responses have it exactly right.

There are two kinds of sign shops - the guys who work themselves to death trying to beat everyone's prices, and the guys who only work for people willing to pay them what they are worth.

The first kind spend nights and weekends away from their families, never take vacations, and still struggle with their bills - all for the priveledge of doing coroplast yard-sale signs, tyvek banners and magnetics, for customers who complain about everything and whose loyalty can be bought by the next guy who works for five bucks cheaper. They constantly worry about what other shops are doing, who's charging what, and for them the sign business is a tedious rat race where nobody wins.

The other kind, however, seem to get all the "nice" jobs; they spend their working hours productively, have clients who appreciate them and are loyal, and who never seem to be too concerned with what their competitors are doing. They may not be rich, but their bills are paid, they have health insurance and a retirement plan. Most important, they have lives away from their shops; you don't find them there every Sunday or at 3am, with disgusted wives and disappointed kids they never have time for. For them this is a profitable and satisfying trade.

The difference between these two is a matter of attitude. From attitude comes decision-making, and from decisions come consequences; a direct cause and effect relationship. It has very little to do with what area they are in, or what their competitors are doing, because what matters is their own attitude and behavior - over which they have control - rather than the attitude and behavior of others - over which they have no control. In doing so they are in charge of their own lives, rather than at the mercy of circumstance.

You are what you choose to be, whether in the sign business or anything else - but remember, [/i]if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

[Kent Smith]

What Mike, Ray and Cam said goes double for me. When I was first re-establishing my business in this town, over 30 years ago, I was hungry. We took on anything we could and gave the wrong impression to some customers who later became our lodest and best. One banker took a chance on me and had me do some shocards in a rush for a promo they were doing. When he needed more, he came back again. After some years, they were remodeling and I noticed that someone had replace all of their gold leaf on their 10 exterior doors. Next day the same banker came by for a couple of cards to promote the remodel so I asked him why he had not at least allowed me to bid on the gold. His response shocked me into changing my ways that day. He said that he figured that the only type of work I did was those rush order shocards and never even thought of me for any other type of work. It turned out that I had done that with many of my potential customers inadvetantly. I set about changing my image and became THE one to come to for gold leaf and also those special and complicated projects no one else would attempt. This is a position I maintain as much as possible.

[Dan Sawatzky]

In our shop we do nothing but unusual and far out stuff. It's all high end and priced likewise.

People often ask me how we manage to do only this type of work. The answer is simple... we turn down everything else. We are known as THE SHOP to go for when folks want OUTRAGEOUS stuff. We are known as problem solvers and creative thinkers.

This type of reputation is hard earned... and not by doing ANY type of ordinary work.

It pays to be in a niche market... there's NO competition.

-dan

[Keith Pettit]

Keith,
You are not alone in your whining! It must be one of the most common you see and hear in our business.
I have struggled for so long and I have often read the advice that is offered by the great men that have already posted here, and thought "it's alright for them!!"
Personally speaking I have moved away from the problems that you are encountering, and I have achieved it with the advice already offered here,
all I would like to add, is passion, passion for your work and your designs is the best way to sell your work and secure the job at the price that pays your bills and and will enable you to go Fly fishing! I see my customers faces light up when they realize what they can have, lets face it only the rarest customer is not worried about the cost, but when you sell your consepts and designs with a burning passion, the customer realizes how bland and uncarring your competion is!
I have added this approach not through a calculated tactic, it is just the way I am, the way I feel about our craft.
Good Luck!!
Keith

[Jill Marie Welsh]

Keith, I feel your pain.
That customer sounds like one I have been trying to get rid of for 2 years.
Luckily, the last time he wanted a big sign in a hurry, I told him that I would need all the cash up front, and I quoted him about $200 more just because he was a pain in the butt. (I had been warned about him by others that he was slow/no pay and was almost out of business) This time, he finally stopped bugging me.
I am also a small-time sign gal. This is my 20th year in business.
I am a single mom of three. We eat a lot of hot dogs in the winter!
I am somewhere between coroplast and custom.
I do get coro customers, but I am charging them more.
Everything from gas to groceries has gone up in price, so should signs.
People will often come to me for vynull, then glance about my office at all my Letterhead panels. "Oh, do you paint/pinstripe/gild?" they will ask. "YES!" I answer.
It seems that our clientelle have been "WalMarted" by franchises/Internet shops who do things on the cheap.
I am sick of this mentality.
Do we ask the doctor "Is that the best price you can give me?"
This is the year where I WILL get a 50% deposit on all signs. NOBODY will take delivery without payment in full. I refuse to haggle over prices! They can take it or leave it.
I know I'll sleep better at night!
Good luck.
Love....Jill

[Doug Fielder]

This is all great info!

My main business is pinstriping, lettering and KUSTOM painting trucks & motocycles here in central VT. The folks here don't have lots of money and those that do don't like to spend it on the paint work.
I have turned down a $2500 'Real Fire' kustom paint job on a bike because the guy wanted me to put every other customer aside (that equaled more than his job) and do his so he could have it for the next weekend.
As everyone here knows, when your repeat customers need their new Kenworth lettered 2 hours away (so they can get it on the road and make their truck payments!) you cannot tell them to find someone else because Joe Blow wants his 'Luxury' cycle flamed before him. In that week, I lettered & striped 3 trucks (2 pick-ups, 1 KW Aerocab), striped 2 BMW bikes and flamed 2 cycle helmets.
I tell the people that this isn't ______ (insert customer's name here) Sign Shop, and to find someone else to do it, I am too busy.