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The Problem with Paint

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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Paul Jukes
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Kitchener Ontario, Canada
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The Problem with Paint

Post by Paul Jukes »

Hello all,

I'm assembling a list of supplies that I need to get to work on my first projects and am debating what paints I should be working with.

I am concerned about the working characteristics of the paint such as how well it flows and covers etc., its long term durability and its effects on my health and the health of the planet.

I know a lot of you may shrug off the last point but two years ago my dad, who is in his early 50's and worked with and around various paints his whole life, needed two liver transplants and almost died. Some of my earliest memories are of sitting for hours watching election signs being screen printed. It's a wonder I don't have asthma or some other health issue. I'm sure many of you have similar stories. I don't want that for myself or for my kids so I'm looking into this now.

Anyway, on to the paint. Please let me know of any inaccuracies and tell me your opinions!

It seems the main choices for hand lettering are:

1-Shot
Considered to be the best paint to use by many though, apparently, not as good as it once was. Universally mixable.

MSDS - http://www.dick-blick.com/msds/DBH_01016.pdf
Contains lead.
VOC's - 3 to 4 Lbs/Gal. (360 - 480 g/L) depending on the colour.
Makes you feel like garbage in the short term and destroys your major organs and nervous system in the long term.
Absorbable through skin, eyes, inhalation, ingestion

Ronan Japan Colours
Seems to be used more for reverse on glass work. Can it be used on conventional outdoor signs such as wood or metal? Can the colours be mixed?

MSDS - http://cdn.dickblick.com/msds/DBH_010301037H3.pdf
Lead free.
VOC's - Max. 3.75 Lbs/Gal. (450 g/L)
Also makes you feel like garbage in the short term and destroys your major organs and nervous system in the long term.
Absorbable through skin, eyes, inhalation, ingestion

I've been naively looking for alternatives and came across this product from Matthews Paint.
http://www.ppg.com/coatings/matthewspai ... fault.aspx
It's an acrylic polyurethane that they claim has excellent hiding and coverage and can be brushed onto wood metal or plastic (no word on glass).
It contains no lead, that I am aware of, and has less than 50g/L VOC.

Has anyone used such a product for hand lettering? If so how did it go? If there are any other alternatives that you know of or have used please comment.
Paul Jukes
Kitchener Ontario, Canada
signsbyjukes.com
ericmalicoat
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:37 am
Location: Arroyo Grande, Ca

Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by ericmalicoat »

I use Matthews all the time. Our shop chose Matthews because it is spec'd often in the institutional and ADA work we do as a large part of the business. I am not a product expert, but will given you my opinion based on used it for years.

The first issue you ask about is suitability/workability/etc. Matthews paint is really designed to be sprayed and for that purpose is works well. The satin line gives consistant satin finishes and the coverage is good. Airbrushing is works well for color and hold, but the sheen always comes out dead flat or high gloss. Brushing and rolling work, but have issues. First, the coverage brushing/rolling is not good(all colors require at least two coats and some require four-five coats). Second, coat timing is an issue for several reasons. You can run a second coat after about 30 minutes, but if it has not tacked up enough, it will pull the first coat up is sticky chunks(I think this is coast thickness issue from the first coat). The other coat issue is that if the prior coat stick has any tack, it does something to the suface tenson of the later coat making the paint much more likely to run over the edge of the raise surface you might be painting. Matthews does well with other paints over it after the 3 day cure time, but does wrinkle if reduced solvent based paint goes over it before 3 days. I have had luck with unreduced one shot over it after it's only dried overnight, but even a small amount of reducer in the one shot causes wrinkles.

You second issue in regards to health. It feels very similar to automative paint. I always wear a full face mask when using it. Otherwise, it stings to the eyes when sprayed. No mask will will leave you feeling worse than one shot. Also noteable is that whatever is in it seems to react to cold medication and the combination will leave you glassy eyed and staring at a wall.

I hope this helps.
Paul Jukes
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Kitchener Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by Paul Jukes »

Thanks Eric,

That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for.

I guess the most comfortable solution for me is to just use 1 Shot and wear a mask/gloves since I'm pretty familiar with those paints. How do Japan colours compare?

I am very interested in learning more about the different paint people are using. Is anyone making their own or know of any good books on making sign paint?

I enjoyed reading through the "lead based paint" thread on the forum as well.

https://handletteringforum.com/forum ... ead#p10432
Paul Jukes
Kitchener Ontario, Canada
signsbyjukes.com
Mark Summers
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Location: Frisco, Co
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by Mark Summers »

Bear in mind Matthews has 'isocyanates'. I would take extra
caution with any paint that is catalyzed.

Mark
David Slade
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Location: Osaka, Japan
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by David Slade »

As I have mentioned before, we have some natural tree resin based paints in Japan. Cashew brand is very old and respected. I have had some up on windows for about two years with no problems so far. BUT the black is not very opaque and fades in the sun. Other colors are good. It works well with turps and boiled linseed oil. Retains high gloss even with lots of turps. One more point, the smell can only be described as PUNGENT! Of course it doesn't flow like the synthetic paints but a pretty good balance can be achieved...

I do not know the chemistry in detail, mind you. I figure natural resins would be less risky by definition... but who knows.

I just now found a US dealer online. If you try it let me know your opinions. A little pricey on this site.
http://www.hyper-cafe.com/index.php?action=about_cu
http://www.hyper-cafe.com/html/Category-11-0.html

Japanese pamphlet/specs sheet
http://www.cashew.co.jp/cashew_toso.pdf

The small cans are about 700 yen over here. They sell all sizes. I can set up shipping from a supplier or send out stuff to anyone interested.



PS I have no connection to these companies and only provide this for your information.
Paul Jukes
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Kitchener Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by Paul Jukes »

This is very interesting David.

After reading your reply I looked into the products you indicated. If I understand correctly, the Cashew Urushi is made from cashew oil and was created in the 1950's as an alternative or imitation of Hon-Urushi. Hon-Urushi is a traditional lacquer made from the sap of the Japanese sumac tree which contains Urushiol, the stuff that makes poison ivy itchy. This is apparently one of the hardest lacquers in existence.

You have mentioned problems with blacks opacity and fading. Do colours mix well? Do you prefer these paint over others? If so, why and what else have you used?

You shouldn't assume that because it's natural it isn't harmful to you. There are many things found in nature that are extremely toxic to us including many of the solvents found in paints and thinners. I'm trying to better understand the effects of the chemical soup we expose ourselves to when painting and have found a great deal of information in the book Health Hazards Manual for Artists by Michael McCann. Mine is a 3rd edition (they're up to 6th) and a bit out of date but it's definitely a book you should have on your shelf.
Paul Jukes
Kitchener Ontario, Canada
signsbyjukes.com
BruceJackson
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by BruceJackson »

First, I want to second the comment on iso-cyanates. These are typically found in most polyurethanes paints (usually automotive type paints) are they are to be given a good deal of respect. Don't use them unless you have read the MSDS and the safety instructions and understand the implications of exposure to them. Isocyanates are very damaging when breathed and may also be carcinogenic. You can spray safely, but you must follow good practice.

Paul, perhaps some understanding of basic paint chemistry will help you.

There are many paints, but they mostly fall into a handful of different types. The makers have and tweak their own recipees, but the basic chemistry of each type is the same.


1. Water based emulsion paints. Almost always acrylic, these are thermoplastic paints (don't chemically set) but have long chain polymers that clump together forming a film.

2. oil-based paints. Your traditional enamel paint made with oil and/or resin, usually alkyd resin. May be made with a variety of other plant resins, varnishes, etc. Typically thinned with turpentine or similar solvents.
These are thermosetting paints. They absorb oxygen from the atmosphere and undergo a chemical change called polymerisation. What happens is the molecules contain a type of double carbon bond that changes and links to another molecule, thereby creating a lattice structure and forms a film.

3. lacquers - traditionally shellac made from bugs. it's thermoplastic...so it dissolves again with it's own solvent. There are synthetic versions made using (formerly) nitro-cellulose and later acrylic resin.

4. 2 part thermosetting paints. There are many variations of these modern paints, but the two parts mixed together cause the chemical reaction that will polymerise, forming a structure. They tend to be stronger, tougher and may more have health implications during application due to some of the ingredients. Common ones are Epoxies, polyurethanes (with isocyanate) and polyester (MEK). There are also acid-catalyzed paints, (often used on timber for furniture)

Most paints consist of Pigment, a resin (or resin system) and reducer (for viscosity adjustment). May also contain fillers and other additives (for opacity, texture, body, drying time, chemical resistance, UV resistance or other qualities)

Obviously there are other types but they may be less common than the four listed above. If you understand what type of paint it is, you will have a fair idea of it's characteristics, strengths and limitations.

As a signwriter, I mainly use the first two for hand lettering. You can brush the other types of paints, but you're getting into specialized reasons for doing so.
erik winkler
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:48 pm
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by erik winkler »

Hello Bruce,

Thanks for this excellent explenation.
Since, as recently shown by Roderick, I am not allowed to ask basic questions about paint.
I wander if you could help me with a problem I have for a long time.
Everybody is talking about Japan paint, but I can not seem to find a good dutch translation for this. Would you explain me what Japan paint excactly is so I can find a good paint here?

Thanks Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
BruceJackson
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by BruceJackson »

Hi Erik....hahaha... Asking basic questions is the wisest way to learn. Your comment reminds of that old saying. "There are no stupid questions..."

As for Japan paints...someone else should probably answer this, because it is a term that means different things to different people. As an Australian, I have never been 100% sure about the American use of the word and the products that carry this name.

But when people talk about "Japan colours", to me, this is a fast drying, flat (matte finish) paint that is thinned with turpentine or mineral spirits. It is a "short oil" that is heavily pigmented. Not as flexible as a long oil enamel, so it tends to crack more readily, but it covers brilliantly. Typical use is traditional scenic painting, faux finishes, etc. It also sticks well to glass.

Short oil is a term referring to the amount of oil (very little, if any at all) and drying properties of the medium (well boiled, so it polymerises quickly).

The standard gold leaf backing up paint (for me anyway) is "Drop black", which is basically a Japan paint.

Just to confuse matters, In Australia, we have a paint called "Black Japan" which is a bituminous paint. It is also known as, or basically the same as Asphaltum, Tar paint, Gilsonite, Brunswick Black, Black timber floor stain.

I hope someone else with more knowledge, such as Kent Smith will chime in and correct any errors in my description.
Paul Jukes
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:06 pm
Location: Kitchener Ontario, Canada
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by Paul Jukes »

Bruce, thank you for a very concise description of the more common paints. This is very helpful. I'm sure I'll be referring back to this on occasion.

Erik, If you have any "basic questions" you're afraid to ask just send them to me and I'll ask them for you. No shame here. :wink:
Paul Jukes
Kitchener Ontario, Canada
signsbyjukes.com
David Slade
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 7:01 am
Location: Osaka, Japan
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by David Slade »

Eric,
Thank you! I have been asking this same question and am not satisfied yet.

So, what is Japan exactly? Somebody?

Paul,
Bear in mind I am not a professional.... They very kindly put up with me here, anyhow...

You are basically on target, but be careful not to confuse the urushi and cashew with what is called lacquer in the States. Cashew curdles if you add lacquer thinner. I have not used urushi myself I know they use gum turpentine to thin it. The lacquer that Bruce very accurately described is, I believe, a copy of the Japanese items.

I started using Cashew basically for lack of anything else. One Shot goes for $30 to 40 a pop over here. The local sign paints by Daido Inc. are about twice that. Lacquer and regular old paints have the obvious draw backs.

Just this year a couple of reasonably priced pinstriping paints HAVE finally come on the market. Woopie!

Cashew is not perfect, for sure. I like it on reverse glass. It dries fast, hard and glossy. Also, the extra pull on the brush feels nice on glass, to me. For surface lettering it kind of builds up too much. I coaxed it along with boiled oil and other additives. And mixing colors helps. The dark blue covers really well. Mixed with the black it looks basically black. All the Cashew colors I have mixed have worked fine. In fact, lacquer is about the only thing that has refused to mix with it. Cashew does not make a bright blue, tho. That's a drawback. The clears dry really hard, especially "suki", but they are only about as clear as honey.

You are right, I don't know much about the health risks of Cashew. Tho it is strong smelling, it doesn't get to me as bad as lacquer. I know some people over here apply hon-urushi bare-handed with drenched pieces of gauze. Guess life was cheap when that tradition started, huh?
BruceJackson
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: The Problem with Paint

Post by BruceJackson »

Just thought I'd add a little extra info, especially with the talk of various resins, "cashew" and lacquers.

I'm not familiar with some of these traditional Japanese finishes, so I'm not sure exactly what's going on with them. By the way, "Japan" as a paint, is just a term...doesn't mean much on it's own, but I suppose it was coined to describe a paint that sort of matched the properties of the old Japanese lacquers.

First, "Lacquer", in it's true sense is a "THERMO-PLASTIC" paint....it dries because the solvent evaporates...no chemical change....doesn't matter if it's made from bugs, natural resins or acrylic resin

Second. Most oil-based paints are "THERMO-SETTING"....They polymerize...The oils used are drying oils. It doesn't matter if its tung, linseed, walnut, poppy or any other "natural" source....Unsaturated oils have the property that they oxidize and polymerize, thereby earning the name "drying" oils.

So the Japanese "Lacquers", using cashew oil, urushiol or other unsaturated oils/resins are actually thermosetting. Once they have cured, they are resistant to the solvent that was used to reduce them. It's just one of the many frustrating facts about paint that we use these terms like "Japan", "enamel", "lacquer" that have fuzzy meanings.

And to add insult to injury...you can sometimes mix these different things together, adding confusion about what's going on chemically. You can add wax into many paints. You can add oils into water-borne emulsions or oil into lacquers, you can add water-miscible and alcohol-miscible resins into oil-based paints. Epoxies into alkyd (rust-proofing), urethane catalyzer into enamel paint (dries harder), etc, etc, etc.

Sorry to only confuse while trying to simplify, but it's good knowledge to have if you wrap your head around it.
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