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Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Hand Lettering topics: Sign Making, Design, Fabrication, Letterheads, Sign Books.

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erik winkler
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Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by erik winkler »

Maybe someone knows about an alternative for goldleaf.
Goldleaf, as we all know, is very exspensive at this moment.
So exspensive that it is allmost not affordable.
There are a few suppliers of metalleaf in the world, but is there a kind of leave for sale that has a gold color and can be watergilded behind glass?
Even burnished to give it the high gloss we all know?
Something that will not tarnish due to the watersize?

Or is this just Alice in Wonderland thinking?

Thank you,
Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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Terry Colley
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Location: Stockport England

Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Terry Colley »

Erik
I'll refer you to your other post Art for arts sake!
given the time put into such work the cost of the gold is minimal and if the work is for sale or a comission then just cost it in.
most who do work here sell gold for what it is , the best you can get, so I wouldn't go looking for an alternative as you won't find one
Cheers Terry
Terry Colley
Stockport, England
Signwriter/maker
Larry White
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Larry White »

I backed some glue chip with some gold Krylon once...

there was never any words spoke over it.


.

How 'bout slappin' some Signgold!!


.
Last edited by Larry White on Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
erik winkler
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by erik winkler »

Haha I get the point.
But when I think about it there must be some paint stuff which gives the high gloss of burnished gold behind glass.
Here a link: http://www.google.nl/m/search?site=imag ... warsteiner
This German beer brand has a lot of plexiglas signage which has glossy gold lines and lettering. I took a sample chip of the 'gilded' plexiglass with me and it was deffinatly a paint backed up with yellow paint.

Strange....
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
www.facebook.com/Schitterend.eu
David Slade
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by David Slade »

Nothing will ever replace gold, of course, but...

Water gilded silver lasts a while if you protect it. I don't really know how long. Some of my reverse silver is still okay after almost two years...
KNOCK... KNOCK

We have some colored silver over here. I have not tried this particular kind yet so I don't know how it would burnish, etc. Regardless, silver is always hard to work with, mind. Seems like one possibility tho...

Take a peek:
http://www.sankichi.com/SHOP/241755/252061/list.html

PS
I am not connected to the above shop. I buy my leaf there so I do offer the link with some confidence.
Patrick Mackle
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Patrick Mackle »

Erik,
As mentioned before, only real gold looks like real gold.
However, I have tried some things.
One is the Amber 59000 series Nazdar ink. When screen printed onto glass and chemically silvered looks pretty nice and reflective. A lot of current promo beer mirrors are done that way. Check out the wheat sprigs on a COORS BEER or BUD mirror and you will see how close to gold they look.

Another thing I tried which is as close to gold as you can get is to use the brass foiling rolls that printing companies use on their presses for gold foiling embossed business cards. The metal is vaporized very thinly onto a thin clear acetate roll. Rubbing it onto any sticky surface will transfer the thin metal layer. Since the layer is thinner than real gold and on shiny acetate, you don't need to burnish it because it is immediately shiny.
Pat
Kent Smith
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Kent Smith »

NO
Robare M. Novou
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Robare M. Novou »

YES....Gold Chloride.

RMN
What's On Your Book Shelf ?

http://www.milwaukeesignworks.com
BruceJackson
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by BruceJackson »

David,

I have Japanese coloured silver leaf. Not from that company, but from from Hakuza.com

It doesn't burnish to a bright reflective finish. The leaf is tinted with dye and also coated with some kind of polymer to prevent it from tarnishing. The resin coating is very thin, but it's enough to prevent the leaf from conforming to the glass as closely as gold, thereby resulting in a satin finish. It oil-gilds nicely though.

You can water-gild brass leaf (schlag) on glass, but it doesn't look as fine as gold. As for copper, you need a much stronger mix for your water-size.
David Slade
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by David Slade »

Bruce,
Thanks! That saves me from another failed experiment.

I wonder if colorizing the gelatin or water would work. There probably isn't enough size thickness to colorize the leaf...

Could you alter the appearance of brass in this way??
BruceJackson
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by BruceJackson »

You can tint the water size. I have done this using a pigmented ink (not the dye-type) as I expect it will be less prone to fading. It's a very pretty effect because the ink accentuates the texture of the gold.

It doesn't have the same look as a layer of colour glaze backed up with metal or the coloured Japanese leaf because it's not an even layer of colour.

Would it work with brass leaf? Maybe... but I tend to stick with gold....It's always a nicer and finer look. The cheaper metals just don't have the fine texture of gold.
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David Slade
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by David Slade »

Remember this topic?
https://handletteringforum.com/forum ... f=2&t=2806

What if you do this process in reverse?
- mask the glass
- spray on the clear (with color/tent)
- silver
- remove mask

Would the clear be too brittle and crack when mask is removed?


Bruce,
Thanks for posting the picture. What kind of leaves are those? Was it brighter in real life? The cool "tie-dye" pattern is the settled out pigment, right?

Not able to do much myself for a while...
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BruceJackson
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by BruceJackson »

David Slade wrote:hat kind of leaves are those? Was it brighter in real life? The cool "tie-dye" pattern is the settled out pigment, right?
23 carat gold.
yes, it's brighter in real life, but it's not mirror-finish...Adding ink (or anything else) to the water-size kills the reflectivity, but it is still a nice satin finish.
The pattern is exactly that...Pigment settled into all the fine texture of the leaf. You can clearly see that as this leaf was beaten, it formed this radial pattern. Different brands and types of leaf give different patterns. This example was a hand-beaten gold leaf by William Ashcroft & Co. It is unfortunately not made anymore. It had a beautiful texture. Not as consistent as machine-beaten leaf, but with a lot more character.
Ingrid Mager
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 12:23 am

Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Ingrid Mager »

I'm sure it's not gonna be like the real McCoy, but I bought some of this stuff to fool around with:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 363wt_1075
(It's the one on top..the one that says listing ended, but you can still click on it and get the info)

If I have any luck of any sort, I will post results, but at this point I am figuring it won't be much different than metal leaf. It looks pretty nice, though, albeit, very small sheets.
Anybody try it before?

~Inga
Billie DeBekker
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by Billie DeBekker »

Ingrid,
That ebay gold.. Yes I Keep about 1000 sheets on hand. It won't adhere to glass with water size but works very nice with Oil. It doesn't burnish out so I only use it on small letters on Glass for a different effect. It gives the look of carved Glass if you paint your borders first then do your centers. Where it really shines though is on Textured Dimensional letters. The color is a stronger Yellow/Gold then normal 23k gold.. I think due the clear Carrier.

The CPA Lettering was done with that gold. Its not a Dave Smith Quality but I'm Still learning and practicing.

Image
BruceJackson
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by BruceJackson »

that's a very nice looking piece William. Lovely choice of colors

Thanks for the link Ingrid. I was aware of it's existence but haven't used this material either.

I hadn't taken much notice of it before, but I want to get some now, because it looks like a really useful material. I feel that it may be a good replacement for standard brass leaf (schlag/dutch metal/imitation gold).

With a flashed on layer of gold, it's surely going to be less prone to oxidizing than brass leaf.
DAVE SMITH
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Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by DAVE SMITH »

William .This looks great! I also like your choice of colours .
Thanks for showing us.
Dave
oatis
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:33 am

Re: Is there an alternative for goldleaf?

Post by oatis »

Atkinson himself addressed the issue in presenting a formula for an Imitation Gold leaf effect which could to be used to great advantage when called upon to do "Cheap Exhibition Work". I presume this referred to reverse window lettering in exhibition halls and other locations, where the lettering was subect to periodic removal.

Lettering was laid out on the outside of the glass, then outlined on the reverse side. Once the outlines were dry, and trimmed, yellow-tinted varnish was applied within the letters. Once that varnish was thoroughly dry, silver leaf was water sized behind--I believe he also recommends using aluminum leaf.

I believe another very suitable alternative would be tinted gold size, dusted with aluminum bronze. A skillfully rendered reverse aluminum job looks like burnished gold from across the street, Kent Smith is a master at this.
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