the importance Surface tension and Silvering front surfaces

[Ismael Alvarado]

ok guys I now glass has a low surface tension compared to paint coatings and wetting agents its a very important step to successfully silver a mirror, now there are many types of Surfactants that help to lower the surface tension of plastics and such, but there are tons of them, like detergents: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergents heavy alcohols: Propyl, isopropyl alchohols and Polyethylene glycol found in many dish washing detergents...

have you guys have experiences using surfactants that you could share with me..?

Thanks and merry Christmas

[erik winkler]

Ismael,

Pat Mackle once told me of using a product that photograpers use in their dark room.
Maybe you can do a search there?

Erik

[Danny Baronian]

Kodak Photo flo. Or a few drops of Joy liquid detergent in 16 ozs. of distilled water if Photo flo wasnt' available, which is what many processing labs used in a pinch. The results with both are the same.

That's as basic as it gets. Once the glass has been cleaned, pour distiled water on a leveled glass piece. If there are areas that are dry, where water will not flow evenly over the glass, it generally needs to be cleaned more thoroughly. If the water doesn't coat the glass evenly, neither will the tin or the silver.

Where a sufficant is occasionally needed is when using a used piece of glass or mirror. It may have some unusual contaminants where normal cleaning will not remove, and the photo flo, or joy mixture may help flow out.

In your past examples, as in plating plastic spoons, where silvering odd shapes is the object to be silvered, there may be other preperation steps required for that paticular application.

If that's the case, contact Angle Gilding, Angelgilding.com for additional information or chemicals.

[erik winkler]

Thanks for the insight Danny.
Good tips!

By the way, it is christmas morning here.
May i start in wishing you Danny, your family and everybody else on this forum a merry christmass.


Erik

[Ismael Alvarado]

In your past examples, as in plating plastic spoons, where silvering odd shapes is the object to be silvered, there may be other preperation steps required for that paticular application.

If that's the case, contact Angle Gilding, Angelgilding.com for additional information or chemicals.

Thanks alot sir, unfortunaly that´s my case, where silvering of odd shapes its my business, no I must remaind you sir that I live in nicaragua and Photo flo its nowhere to be found.. I am currently using Angel gilding chemicals,(best bang for the buck in the world) but saddly not their surfactant, I know their tinning solution use alittle bit of surfactants, and I was wondering if I could help that buy using none resudual detergents as wetting agents and letter the tinning solution,

I have decrese the surface tension of plastics by adding paint coatings, but some coatings are harder to wett than others, right now I am experimenting with Water based sealers as a base coat before the silvering because it has the lowest surface tension I have seen in an industrial coatings, and has good adhesion too, but I am not sure if its a good alternative to solvent based coatings sinse NOBODY here uses water based morror backing coat, maybe its not that good protecting silver mirrors...


Thanks......Merry Christmas

[Danny Baronian]

Thanks Erik,

Merry Christmas to you too, as well as all those on the forum.

Danny

[Patrick Mackle]

I have a surfactant I use for several in house concoctions, the product is DAPRO 77.
Also AIR PRODUCTS sells several surfactants and wetting agents as well as defoamers.
And actually, I have found that even when taken fresh out of the crate, float glass is highly water repellent until laboriously preped.
Several years ago when I attended a Conclave at John Studden's in Valencia, I was talking about how I had found that using a surfactant soap to clean glass in preparation to silvering made the silver take to the glass surprisingly fast. Later, Sarah King, who was at that meet was at that time working on the Angel gilding formula. She said that she would like to know more about my find. Back then angel gilding was more miss than hit. It seems to me that she may have employed some of what I told her about wetting agents along with her husband's continuing progress, as angel gilding became more hit than miss after that conversation.
"Better Living Through Chemistry".
Chemical Pat

[Ismael Alvarado]

I had found that using a surfactant soap to clean glass in preparation to silvering made the silver take to the glass surprisingly fast.

do you have that soap's name? I know that probably I will not be able to find it in nicaragua, but I can find the main ingredients in the internet, probably a none ionic surfactant...

It seems to me that she may have employed some of what I told her about wetting agents along with her husband's continuing progress

Knowledge its Power...and I want some of that....

[Patrick Mackle]

Ismael wrote: "do you have that soap's name?"
The product is ALCONOX made by ALCONOX INC. It's a powdered laboratory soap for cleaning medical glass instruments.
Pat

[Sarah King]

Getting plastics to wet is a big issue and many scientists spend their careers on it. I know because we have been doing a lot of research and the same experiments as you, Ismael, and for the same reason - so that our customers can successfully use our silver for front surface or "spray chrome" applications. We tried Photo Flo but it didn't work as well as our new Wetting Agent which we found out about from our friend Phil Trast. The upside of our Wetting Agent is that it works better than anything else we have found. The downside is that you need to rub it onto the surface and then rinse it ALL off before you can tin the surface. Phil used it on glass but it seems to work very well on plastic too - and it's non-toxic. We are still working on finding a surfactant we can add directly to the Tin for Silver but that is proving to be a bit more difficult. We'll let you know when we get there.

Pat - Alconox is really great for cleaning stubborn glass but we have not found that it wets plastics very well. We have found that some dish washing detergents, just like Windex and some other glass cleaners, are designed to leave the surface "sparkling clean" which, in fact, means that they are often designed to leave a thin film behind which can interfere with the tinning. Alconox rinses off completely which is great. We include Alconox and it's cousin, Liquinox, in our kits. Detergents like Alconox and Liquinox contain surfactants but they also contain other chemicals for lifting and dissolving dirt - surfactant and detergent are not exactly the same thing.

Thanks for your kind words about our compnay!! And Happy New Year to all.

[Ismael Alvarado]

Getting plastics to wet is a big issue and many scientists spend their careers on it. I know because we have been doing a lot of research and the same experiments as you, Ismael, and for the same reason - so that our customers can successfully use our silver for front surface or "spray chrome" applications.

yes I am doing many experiments and I will share my knowledge gained by them to everybody here,

Mrs king do you know of any ill effect of the silvering film after period of time if Methanol was added to the silvering chemicals? I was able to silver a piece just fine after adding some Methanol to the mixed formula, it flowed really well, but I don't know the effect of that in the short and long run..

Thanks for your kind words about our compnay!!

I think you have something special in your family own business and I have a feeling that your spray on chrome side of it will expand very soon... Happy knew Years...

[Sarah King]

I haven't tried adding methanol to the silver so I don't know how it will react over time. I don't know why it would flow out better although it may be cleaning the surface or reacting with the plastic. It is going to evaporate faster than the water but I would not have thought that that would be an advantage of any sort.

So I guess my answer to your question is - I don't know. I would like to know what you find out - keep me posted.

[Ismael Alvarado]

So I guess my answer to your question is - I don't know. I would like to know what you find out - keep me posted.

Thank you Mrs. King I appreciate all the help I get from you, the reasons I was using a small amount of methanol are 2..

the first its because the Only source of REAL distilled water I can get is found in cheap imported windshield washer(the cheap one the one that only has methanol and distilled water without any soap), I have tried all of the so called Nicaraguan distilled water its not so Distilled they ALL have failed the Silver Nitrate test(cloudy water) I have also tried purified water and all failed the Silver Nitrate test, I have had luck with a REAL purified water that comes from Costa Rica(you can't trust Nicaraguan type) that uses 5 stages cleaning(one of them Reverse Osmosis )

the second reason its...that Methanol lowers the surface tension of water so in plain terms, methanol makes water more wetter.. which I think helps, don't know yet, the silvered parts still looking good..