The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

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Roderick Treece
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The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:56 pm

Here is an interesting article about gold leaf glass signs

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Art-of-Go ... id=6654807

Anthony Bennett
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Anthony Bennett » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:17 pm

Good find, I especially liked the link to a fantastic site.
http://www.customglasssigns.com/
Don't know if anyone has heard of it :D

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:22 pm

Looks like Mr. Daniel Francois got some of the facts wrong.

That can happen when you regergitate information written by others that have also not done the proper research.

RMN
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erik winkler
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by erik winkler » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:44 pm

It seems that some gilders are excluded.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
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Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:05 pm

Robare,
What facts are you speaking of ?

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:54 pm

Some of the facts referring to Rawson and Evans.

And who is "Chicago Sandblasting"?

RMN
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Robare,
If you can be more specific I can talk to him and get them corrected . As far as I knew Chicago Sandblasting was a competitor of R&W.

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:45 pm

Are you sure he is not referring to Western Sand Blast...out of Chicago, when he refers to Chicago Sandblasting?

What research notes does he have in regards to Chicago Sandblasting?

I don't have any, there might have been a company by that name back then, but if there was, than its news to me.

If you are going to tell him anything, tell him to do his research before posting inaccurate facts from erroneous web sources.

You've got a good reputation going for you Roderick, don't ruin it by associating your good name and website with others of lesser values.

RMN
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Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:25 pm

Robare,
I will let him know it was Western Sandblasting in Chicago.

What is not right about the Rawson and Evans information ?

Any information I can provide will help in making the story accurate.

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:11 pm

Roderick...I don't know what he was referring to when he listed Chicago Sandblasting. Did he really mean what he stated, or was he referring to Western Sand Blast? That's why you need to ask him to show you his source information. So you, we, and us, can decide which one it is.

How does he validate his info?

Does he get it from Old Ads, Old Articles from Magazines and Newspapers, Old Catalogs, Old Photos, Old Signs, Old Books, Notes from his visit to the various Historical Societies, Local and Out of State Libraries and the Library of Congress, Grave sites, Public City and State Records, Patents, Public Court Records, Birth Certificates, Death Certificates, Marriage License, etc.?

Or does he just get it from Wikipedia and other internet articles laced with incorrect facts.

After reading that article, my guess is he doesn't do any research.

You should also note how those articles get posted to that site...read their requirements, and watch their video.
You'll think twice about that site being a source for correct content.

RMN
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Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:57 pm

Robare,
Why is it that you are not willing to share your information about Rawson & Evans ?

You stated that "Some of the facts referring to Rawson and Evans."
Any help clearing up and inconsistancey would be helpful.

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:30 am

Roderick, I think I have already posted the correct information on this site a while back. I could be wrong, because I now have more senior moments than non senior moments.

There is a search feature on this site, that lets you look up previous posts, do a search on my R&E posts and see if the information is there.

When I do post information on this site, I try to back it up with links and/or photos. I've done the research, and sorted out the facts, once that is accomplished, I confidently post it here. If I do make a mistake, I own up to it.

And as far as Daniel Francois is concerned....It's not my article, I'm not his editor or his fact checker. That site states that they have two editors that examine up to 250 submitted articles per hour. And if you pay them, they bump your article up to the front of the line. Another Pay to Post Payola Scam if you ask me, where's the impropriety? And who checks the fact checkers?

I cringed when I read that article, loaded with Misinformation and Plagiarism. I can only imagine what the other articles on that site informs the readers with. That article should come with a disclaimer..."I am not an Author...I just play one on the internet".

If you want to lower your standards, that's your privilege. But don't drag that cr*p in here.

I say it's wrong and I stand by it, let him prove it's right.

This is not a personal attack on you Rod, this is just me and my strong feelings.

I'm just sorry you feel you have to link to that site.

RMN
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erik winkler
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by erik winkler » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:43 am

And change the 'few' gilders! It is not true.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
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Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:03 am

Here's a link to an article on Gold Leaf Glass Signs...and look who the author is this time. :?

http://www.articlesbase.com/business-ar ... 47873.html
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erik winkler
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by erik winkler » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:05 am

Well maybe I will have to correct the article myself then.
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
Learn, copy and trying to improve...
Still in the learning phase ;-)
Amsterdam Netherlands
www.ferrywinkler.nl
www.schitterend.eu
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Bill DeBekker
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Bill DeBekker » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:23 pm

The Plot Thickens. :shock:

Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:50 pm

So here is the whole story.
Years ago I wanted to work on a story about " gold leaf signs" in an attempt to help promoted the craft. I asked a lot of people ( My peers) for as much information as possible.Very few where interested in helping. So I did as much research as I could and in the end worked with a few others to come up with this story. I don't consider myself a writer by any means. I just tried to do the best I could on it. If for any reason if anyone see a need for facts to be corrected I am open to any and all suggestions that will improve the story.

In regards to who and how many people I mentioned , I could have listed all 100s or so people that do gold leaf signs but I wrote the story.I wanted to keep it short. If you want to write your own story and include everyone you know of I am sure that one person you left out will... feel left out. That can't be helped.

Anthony Bennett
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Anthony Bennett » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:10 pm

Good for you for having a go at it.
Its better than I could have done.
Can you do some more articles, say "acid etching at home without killing someone for the complete newbie" and "20 things to do with Restoration Glass"

Please :D

Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:35 pm

I'll get right on it. Maybe you could send me some before and after photos of a newbie doing acid work...

erik winkler
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by erik winkler » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:16 am

Anthony Bennett wrote:Good for you for having a go at it.
Its better than I could have done.
Can you do some more articles, say "acid etching at home without killing someone for the complete newbie" and "20 things to do with Restoration Glass"

Please :D
Here is a nice article for the newbies:
Acid

Erik
Realizing we are in the 2nd renaissance of the arts.
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Still in the learning phase ;-)
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BruceJackson
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by BruceJackson » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:06 am

Some of the phrasing seems familiar to me. I'm sure I've read something very similar before in the same style...

Anyway...I wanted to chime in with a correction. Erik already noted correctly the thing about "a few gilders". And there is a related point about Rick Glawson. Now, first let me state, this isn't a dismissal of Rick's great contribution to our collective knowledge, but it needs to be said that he isn't the sole re-discoverer of "lost techniques".

The real fact is there have always been many many people, throughout the world, continuing to practice these techniques in an unbroken trend that started centuries ago.

The techniques were never lost. They just went out of fashion for a while during the post WW2 era, admittedly coming down from a high base of development 100 odd years ago. When we take a broader perspective, you can see lots of related artworks, craft works, signs, furniture, etc. Speaking from my own experience in Australia, I can identify an unbroken history of signwriters who knew and practiced virtually all of the methods we are using today. I know they were also busy working doing this stuff in England, USA, France, etc and I'm sure in other places too.

Apart from that, I think it's a good concise description of our art that will help put the word out to those who don't know what we do and would like to expand their understanding.

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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:43 am

Thanks Bruce,
Any advise on the content and information about the story is very helpful. As far as the wording regarding the "Gilders" , If
anyone has another way they would like to phrase it let me know.
I would love to include any history of the craft as it relates to Australia and anywhere else.

It has been my contention for years that creating a story about gold leaf glass signs will help to educate the public about the art form and hopefully create more work for everyone.

I remember reading an article on a web site called Ruavista years ago about glass signs in France. In the article it says that such and such sign artist is the only guy left doing this in the world or something to that effect. My point is history is written by people with their own agendas.
The more people that help me with the story the broader the perspective will be.

Bill DeBekker
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Bill DeBekker » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:32 pm

I do have some Pictures if wanted of a "NEWB" Successfully Mica Acid etching if you want them. Just treat the Acid with respect and I think your fine. (In my opinion) I think some people get so (Lack of a better word) Scared of the Acid that they start Over thinking which leads to mistakes and getting hurt. But I am also one of those guys that take the Guard off my table saw cause it gets in the way and still have all my fingers.

Anthony Bennett
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Anthony Bennett » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:12 pm

Bill DeBekker wrote:I do have some Pictures if wanted of a "NEWB" Successfully Mica Acid etching if you want them. Just treat the Acid with respect and I think your fine. (In my opinion) I think some people get so (Lack of a better word) Scared of the Acid that they start Over thinking which leads to mistakes and getting hurt. But I am also one of those guys that take the Guard off my table saw cause it gets in the way and still have all my fingers.
I would love to see them please Bill

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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Kelly Thorson » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:52 pm

There is a saying - Done is better than perfect. Kudos to you for taking the time and effort to put that together Rod, if there are mistakes, then let those who catch them advise you of them and help you to correct them. It's all good. :)
I believe there is no shame in failure. Rather, the shame lies in the loss of all the things that might have been, but for the fear of failure.

Billie DeBekker
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Billie DeBekker » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:54 am

Here are some photos of a Dual stage Etch. I will post some more I took during the process. I hope this isn't hijacking your thread. If so I will move it.


http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63 ... loseup.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63 ... m/Left.jpg

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq63 ... nogram.jpg

A few people don't like my frame but Oh Well.. I was going for an old cabin Look.

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:31 am

Done is better than Perfect?....Just because its a "saying" doesn't mean it's right. That saying is the "Ultimate" (in my opinion) moniker of bastardization. You might be able to live by those words if you get the color slightly wrong on a sign, but paint on the wrong phone number or any other important copy...and you'll be hearing about it.

There is no gray area when it comes to the facts, you're either right or you're wrong. Would you be able to watch your local news if you knew that they didn't care about getting it right? You trust them to "Get The Facts Right". Don't you?

I applaud Roderick's efforts, in this case he may have been more the victim than the perpetrator. As he was relying on previously published facts, of which some were not correct.

Facts are relied upon in a court of law, not hearsay.

The history of reverse glass gilding, is not a widely known or cared about subject by the greater populace of our society. And it's a tough nut to crack when researching for those facts. One is sometimes left to "trust" on the previous erroneous facts of others. (Fact: not all facts are erroneous...some are quite true. :wink: )

There is probably more history known about "Dancing with the Stars" or "American Idol" than the history of gilding.

Great strides have been made in past 40 years on the history or gliding, or has it been? As newbies to the world of gilding, we were never the vessels of knowledge that the old timers were, for some of them, their knowledge died with them. For the few that remained, some of them could care less. If it had not been for a few "newbies" back in the 70's...we may all still be wandering around in the dark and murky waters of our old techniques and history.

And besides, our history was not the focus of what took place back then, it was all about the technique and getting the correct facts to do all those old and fancy techniques.

Roderick, myself, and others have posted plenty of correct facts on this site. Roderick is one Fine Gilder.

Had I of known that Rod was the script keeper of that article, I would have pulled him aside and helped him with a verse or two.

He never contacted me during his research efforts for that article...oh Rod, a lover spurned...it's too late now, what's done is done. You live by poor research, you die by poor research.

As keepers of our craft, it is our duty to maintain those high standards our forefathers established.

And if it means to be a watchdog over the facts, then so be it.

Nobody is gonna piss all over the history of gilding and say "done is better than perfect".

That crud might fly over on some other sites, but not here.

Higher standards have been set here and will be maintained here.

RMN
Last edited by Robare M. Novou on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Roderick Treece
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Roderick Treece » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:09 am

Robare,
Here are a few facts for you.

1) You don't remember by I did contact you about writing an article quite some time ago . As I recall you were also working on something but didn't give any details. I told you I would be happy to help you. I've got your name in my notes regarding the matter. As I mentioned before I did reach out to people regarding the article and didn't get much response.

2) You say some of the Rawson and Evans facts are wrong but you aren't willing to tell me what they. Instead you tell me to go searching through the archive to figure it out. One of the places I got the facts from was on this site.Any "Facts" I found through my research were "Facts" that others considered true.

3) People write history to benefit there own intentions and perspectives. It does mean they fact are true .

Instead of worrying weather I got some "Facts" wrong, help a guy out and set the facts straight , your facts that is.

Patrick Mackle
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Patrick Mackle » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:14 pm

This could be a real good time to get some history straight for ourselves and those who may pursue the craft.
Why not call this pokergame, and have everybody with some clear knowledge show their factual cards. Let's do it before the 2012 Mayan calender runs out, or it won't matter anyhow. :wink:
Pat

Robare M. Novou
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Re: The Art of Gold Leaf Glass Signs

Post by Robare M. Novou » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:05 pm

Rod, I honestly do not remember typing to you about your research request. Like I said before, I now have more senior moments, so it's quite possible I let our prior conversations lapse.

Here's how you can reshape your article for a more accurate account...instead of mentioning R&E as beginning in 1880, reword the start date to be more general and include other Midwestern glass sign companies.

"Starting in the later half of the 1800's Chicago based ornamental glass sign manufactures P. Pause, Western Sand Blast, Rawson and Evans, and Others of lesser notoriety began turning out sand blasted, acid etch, glue chipped, silvered and gilt ornamental window glass, and reverse glass signs."

That way, you will be including other ornamental glass companies that started before R&E. You could also add...

"Due to economic conditions, material and labor costs, changes in aesthetics, newer and cheaper alternatives, many of these Manufacturers began closing their doors by around the late 1920's and early 1930's."

You could be more specific on all the players and dates, but your article is a supposedly a "brief" history and not a "complete" history...which would take a whole website devoted exclusively to that. (more on that later.)

Some of the other posters to this thread have also made some good suggestions that you might want to include in your revised article. And when you do revise it, post it here temporarily so that we may critique it before you turn it out into the world. Nobody can edit it any better than those of whom it is written about. Then you can have something to link to that we are all proud of. :D

RMN
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