glue chipping...........

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vance galliher
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glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:26 pm

I've been glue chipping for over 20 years....and everytime it is a crapshoot with me. (By the way, this is my first attempt at a photo post. I never really understood how until today when my Portland friend Lee Littlewood explained the process.....I'm excited so let's see if this works)
Below is a photo series of my normal chipping process. After application of glue in early evening, I waited a bit for glue to begin firming up and then rolled several times with spike tool ( left holes as I rolled, but those pretty much soon flowed back in ). Left panel on table overnight to cure, placed in hot box (made just like Rick's) next morning and left all day and overnight - 24 hours. (temp 137 F/ humidity 34) What chipped looks great.........but what to do about the unchipped areas is my questions. I wish my glue chipping was more consistent, sometime it goes great and at other times, this is what happens. Do you ever have this problem ?
I placed it on the light table for the afternoon and nothing much happened. So I turned off two of the four lamps and put it back in hotbox for another overnighter. A little more chipped, but my guess is I'll soak the unchipped areas, re-glue and try again. What would you do ?
I'll now click submit and see what happens with the photo..........tnaks for any replies
Attachments
gluechipping process resampled.jpg
gluechipping process resampled.jpg (236.49 KiB) Viewed 9383 times
Last edited by vance galliher on Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
vance
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:28 pm

...great !! Now I'll have to figure out how to make a photo image larger.
vance
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vance galliher
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:11 pm

portland chip.jpg
portland chip.jpg (27.29 KiB) Viewed 9355 times
let me try this one......... well, I guess I need help on how to make a photo larger

Admimistrator's note: Vance, your photos are only 319px × 248px, so they will appear small. Your camera probably captured it originally at something like 2000 pixels wide and it has been resampled down to this small size. Try making it 700 pixels wide in Photoshop or something similar and saving it with a new name. You can EDIT your own posts, including removing old photos and adding new ones.
vance
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Larry White
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Larry White » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:49 pm

Hey Vance, where did you get your glue from?

Sometimes if the glue stops chipping, the top surface of it can be rehydrated via a spounge and some water, upon drying, it may start chipping again...at least this was some advice from Pat, and it worked for me.

-Billy B.

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Roderick Treece » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:50 pm

Vance,
Looks like if you took an exacto knife and smacked the glue slightly it might still chip. I'd like to know what your mixture is ?
You may be putting it on to thick. Remember the old butter cut rubber sand blast mast ? The glue should end up being about that thick when soft and rubbery.
Glue might be Too cool when applied, should be 130 140.

I like that your letting it dry completely overnight.That works great for me.You can always call me if you have any question.
760 943 9299

Tyler Tim
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Tyler Tim » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:00 pm

Hi Vance

Really have no advice to offer as Glue Chipping is a new venture for me. I do have a question as to the use of the spike tool. Are you trying to control the size of the chip by weakening the glue layer in a uniform manner?

Tim
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

vance galliher
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:35 pm

tim, a tool i got from rick glawson years age..your thinkingright, but rather than a chip size, i think it's more of a chip area...a lesser area requires a lesser stress ?
larry, i'll try that suggestion, the glue came from rick or letterhead supply............... rod, the mixture is 1 glue by weight / 1 1/2 water by volume
thanks for the offering
vance
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Tyler Tim
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Tyler Tim » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:27 pm

Vance

Could you post a detailed photo of this spike roller and maybe a description of what it's constructed of?

Thanks Tim
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

erik winkler
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by erik winkler » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:31 am

Vance the problem of posting the photo's is that it can not be larger then 700 pixels.
So if you have different photo's, post them seperatly 700pixels each.

The glue looks rather compact indeed.
I know gelatin gets old after some years, could this be the case with chipping glue as well?

Erik with a K
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Mike Jackson » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:30 am

Vance,
I'll throw out a few comments.

First, it looks like your glue is way too thick. If you ever try the asphaltum method where you squirt the glue out of the bottle and up to the asphaltum edge, you will be amazed how thin the layer of glue will be when it dries overnight, and you'd also be surprise how well it chips with so little glue.

Second, winter seems to be harder to chip to me than summer. I can remember seeing glue chipping my first time in the summer of 1982 in Boise. I came home, ordered everything and did my first few test pieces. I sold a job to a restaurant later in the year and was trying to chip it in February. I had the same problems, partially due to too much glue. I ended up breaking one piece by putting a heat lamp close enough to force heat into it. (This was when we lived in Moore, OK, known to be much more humid than Boise or Jackson Hole)

Third, I always thought there was some relationship between the texture of the frosting and the chipping. A light frost is all that is needed.

Fourth, you can create a "tent" over a stubborn area using a few wood blocks and another piece of glass. Sprinkle a generous supply of silica gel on the glass, cover it, and tape everything down with duct tape. This will help pull moisture out of the air and glue. On small glass pieces, you can just use a piece of cover glass the same size as the chipping glass. 3/4" strips will usually work as spacers. 2" tape will wrap around nicely. And, you can still put this over a light table or in your chipping box, but I think it works best if left flat. The silica gel can be dried with a heat lamp later and reused.

We also heard of a process of shocking the glue and glass in the cold of winter. I tried it and it worked, but it only seemed to work once. You take the warm glass out into the bitter cold. The glass starts to cool quickly and you'll usually get a fair amount of chipping in a short period. However, anything that doesn't chip during the shock seems to get even more "tough", possibly absorbing new moisture during the cold exposure. I throw it out here, just in case you want to try it as a last resort before softening it and recoating.

Lastly, not all chipping glue works exactly the same. When we found some that worked, we bought 50 lbs and used it the entire time. That glue was so strong, we had to add 8 or 9 drops of glycerin to each square foot of glue. When I taught a glue chip class at the Boise meet, we brought along some of our glue and Esoteric supplied some for the class. Our old glue was much better and more predictable. Rick's supply chipped okay. It just took longer...with everything else being the same. Oh yes, it was summer in the Idaho low humidity!

I'd predict your piece will fully chip, but maybe not till summer! I kept a piece of the broken glass and it did eventually chip.

Depending on your situation and the needs for this piece, you could soak the glue, then remove all the stubborn areas. The unchipped areas will be obvious. You can squirt glue back onto the frosted areas, but if there clear areas next to it, paint some asphaltum on the clear areas first. The glue will run up to it and stop, and even it a tiny bit goes over, it usually won't chip there. It glue goes over the previously chipped areas, you'll get a little "double chipped" pattern, but it is usually not a problem.

Hope some of this helps!

Mike Jackson
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Roderick Treece
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Roderick Treece » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:39 pm

I think your glue was to strong. I like a 1 to 2 ratio for my glue at 1 1/2 to 1 3/4oz dry glue per sqft. I don't think the spike wheel will do anything. I normally do cuts line all over the piece to help break the surface tension of the glue.

Here is my proceedure.

Soak my glue for about an hour in a large plastic container
Put the container in a double boiler to melt.
Bring it up to 100 to melt
pour the glue into squeeze bottles .
The squeeze bottles go into the glue pot filled with hot water at 140d
Let the glue come up to temp 130 140

Clean the glass
Mask it ( No asphaltum needed)
Sandblast until there is no shine left to the glass
Lay the glass on a level table
Warm the glass ( I use my room fan heater)
squeeze the glue on as even as possible making sure it's right up to or over the edge of the mask
Turn the fan and heat off
Let the glue dry until it is stiff enough to start trimming with a knife. The trim line should stay visible. The small detail should be left until last. As I am trimming I remove the mask.
Let the glue dry out over night
If the glue is very hard the next day it go in the booth
During the day if there are any stubborn large areas I smack the glue with the point of a knife to release tension on the glue.
By the end of the day it will be done chipping
Any small pieces of glue still left can be chipped off with a knife

Larry White
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Larry White » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:24 pm

There was some glue circulating that was light yellow in color,
rather than the amber color we're used too.
This yellow glue did not dry as transparent as the amber glue,
and, for me, it didn't chip very well.
Perhaps that's what you have.

-BB

.

Doug Bernhardt
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Doug Bernhardt » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:43 pm

I take to heart what Rick always said....."add all the water you want, it just takes longer to evaporate" My light table has worked wonderfully but have never actually tried to chip in summer here. Notorious for humidity. Wouldn't it be great if there was a down-pat formula for those who (like us) do it in small batches and can't justify a controlled system.

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by bob gamache » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:12 am

Agreed Doug
Here in jersey humidity levels are extreemly high in the summer. I do a lot of pinstrping in a couple of local auto body shops and have access to their spray booths. Any chipping done in the spring, summer or fall is done in a temperature controlled spraybooth. Works great. I bring a 2'x4' lightbox, if they are spraying at the time ill 'tent' my project with either plastic or paper. Not a problem.

Vance my opinion is the glue in those unchipped areas was thicker and just needs more time. Did you level the glass before applying the glue?
Bob Gamache

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Roderick Treece » Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:40 am

Hi Doug ! Hope your doing good.

I wouldn't agree with adding as much water as you want. The ratio and the thickness of the glue after pouring are directly related. If the ratio has to little water the glue poured will end up being to thick. If it's to thin it will be runny and end up to thin. Think of it like thick honey and water. Honey would be about right and water would thin.
As for the chipping cabinet , I wish I used mine more. When it's not in use it doubles as a storage cabinet.

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Danny Baronian » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Roderick, I'm guessing here, I think Doug's reference to Rick's add as much water as you want, it'll just take longer to dry, was just a comment Rick made, not a rule Doug follows. There were time's Rick went the other way and produced a thicker glue, as was the case in the glass sinks he would chip, to prevent the glue from sliding off the glass.

I've always admired, and been frustrated with Doug's glue chipping, with the good results he always seems to achieve.

I've been to his shop, he has no chipping cabinet, no additional information other than what's that's available to all. He just mixes up the glue, applies and let's it dry, then sits in the corner and let it take it's sweet time chipping. I don't remember how it's heated, but for Ontario, he's dealing with high humidity and cold temperatures.

As for Doug's comment of finding a "down-pat formula" of glue chipping, I don't know if that would be the answer either for two reasons:

When I started working in glass, I figured it was like any other material, that could be cut and manipulated like wood or metal. Took some good failures to realize it ain't so. Glass in a class by itself. Working with glass, you can never expect to do the same from one piece to the next.

Years ago, Larry White, Pat Mackle and I (seems there was someone else) went down to Santa Cruz, Ca to visit Roger Page's shop. Roger's main business was producing antique silver mirrors for numerous interior designers throughout the US. His next door neighor was Rich Samsel of GlassLight - http://www.glasslight.com/.

At Rich's shop we saw some amazing work in progress of brilliant carving. In addition, Rich had some glass that looked glue chipped 1/4" thick, about 6' square

Curious as wither he'd done the chipping, he said it was commercially chipped. It looked nice, but at the same time looked too good, with a texture that was so even and uniform, it looked like pressed glass.

While it would be nice to have a fool proof method to chip glass, I wonder if it would be like the glass in Rich's shop: even and plain, without character. Personally, the random chipped projects displayed on this forum,have more character than that produced commercially. Even with their 'perceived' shortcomings.

Besides, with all the questions, suggestions and labor of those on the forum, if it was possible, you'd think by now we would have that "down-pat formula".

If someone has developed one, their not sharing. :-)

Danny
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vance galliher
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:48 pm

First off, thank you all for the interest shown in this post. I posted another photo, but I,m not sure how it will appear. I still don’t understand this photo posting process,……. when I enter 700 pixels, I need to lower the resolution in order to get the required 254 KB or less..... if any of you have an Idiot’s Guide to pic posting, please share that with me as well)….. but I digress.
Back to chipping………Bob,I always make sure the glass is on the level in both directions. Larry, I did try rewetting the glue, and a little more lifted after drying, but the chip is not good (right photo) The left photo is what I want, so I may just start over with a new piece of glass. What would you do ?
Danny, Jerry Berg may have the “down- pat formula”. He called and explained how he gets a perfect chip every single time. We talked for about an hour, so I may not have remembered everything, but his method is very low-tech. One to one mixture, double-boiler type heating device with thermometer, covers the panel with a box after glue sets up, sticks a blow dryer thought a hole in the top, waits a while (sometimes less that a couple of hours)……done ! no big deal !! Jerry, if I’ve missed anything in “your” way, please add corrections. No hotbox, heat lamps, fan, temp/humidity gage. I’m going to try it his way !
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Danny Baronian » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:29 pm

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Lee Littlewood
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Lee Littlewood » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:26 pm

Wow, that Rich Samsel site is really something. And how great to have a mirror shop and a cutting shop next to each other.

My $.02 worth on glue chipping - I haven't done a lot, but I know two people who did (do) it commercially around here (Portland, Oregon - usually pretty damp area), and they had quite opposite and quite successful operations. One has a controlled environment room, automated sandblaster and fairly elaborate cleaning system for the glass. The other does about 25 sheets of (roughly) 4'x4' glass every night. He puts glue on the panes with a sloppy roller and said, "I estimate the thickness by color" . Then he stacks the panes in a plywood tower with a lightbulb at the bottom and a hole at the top, closes the door and leaves. In the morning he sweeps up the glue/glass particles and drops them back in the melting bucket - he felt that the glue gets better with age, so he adds new glue slowly to the old mix.
Very different shops, but both were doing big flat sheets on a regular basis.

So I also have the feeling that the amount of water in the glue isn't super critical, at least for somebody who does it every day and can see how things are going. Which sort of leaves most of us out...

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Danny Baronian » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:50 pm

Hi Lee,

Roger Paige retired a few years ago, no more silvering next door to Rich's.

As far as the outfit in your area, the one with the plywood tower, I thought you posed a picture of that set up years ago, but have no idea if the post / image is still around.

If you have a picture of it, or know who does, please post it.

I think the trick is doing it frequently.

25 sheets give or take a day: any idea of what it's being used for? If I remember correctly from the last time this shop was mentioned, he was doing about the same quantity then.

Thanks,

Danny
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Lee Littlewood
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Lee Littlewood » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:38 pm

Hi, I don't have any pictures, I think I may have described it before but any visuals are in your head. and actually I don't know if Dan is still doing the production chipped glass, he may be just bevelling glass. His setup for that was cool too - big slow-turning felt wheels with water dripping on them and a slurry of grit in the bottom trough. It looked very basic, and sort of contemplative like.

On the chipping, what I remember is a box maybe 6' on a side by 8' or a little less tall, with one side hinged. Inside were shelves of some sort, maybe 1"x2" sitting on cleats (kind of winging it here). A little naked light bulb on the floor and a hole (about 4") in the top, so the warm air went up and around the panes, then out the top.

Both of these guys are selling to the stained glass market, I think.
Last edited by Lee Littlewood on Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jerry Berg
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Jerry Berg » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:30 am

Well, since you put me on the spot here Vance.... It was nice talking to you!

It seems everyone has thier own environment and way of doing things that work for them. At Larry's they where pouring
hot glue from a measuring cup covering the piece. It worked well for them using that method. I opted to do it my way there and that piece of glass is still sitting here, unchipped. Larry has done a whole lot more chipping than me and he gets great results his way.

As you know we have a very high moisture in the air here in washington state as it is usually raining.
I got my mix ratio from this site, a dixie cup of dry glue to a dixie cup of water. After the glue has been applied and it has dried overnight I put it in a large cardboard box. The box has a round hole towards the top I cut out that fits a blow dryer nose. The top of the box is not totally closed so it doesn't get to hot. It usually chips in a couple of hours or less. The blow dryer goes on low heat for 5 minutes and then cools for 15 minutes. I think the cardboard helps absorb some of the moisture. The box was originaly temporary untill I built one but it has worked so it is still in use.

The last piece whch I posted on here, Goodman Properties, at 2' x 5' was too big for the box. I put it in my shower stall, turned on the overhead fan and bungied the hair dryer to the top shower curtain rail. It chipped in about an hour very violently. I thought the glass had broken a number of times as it was loud. Had some very large pieces coming off.
On the Gilmore Gas piece I let the glue thicken to a thick enough consistency to "paint" on with a lettering brush as the glass pieces where pre-slumped gasoline globes. I could'nt have the glue running, it had to stay in place due to the slump. There where 3 of these and they chipped quite well in very little time, in the cardboard box. Some of the glue went on quite thick, not by choice, and still chipped well. Thinly applied glue has allways been problematic for me.
My method is very low tech but works for me. I allways re-use the glue adding new to the mix. I don't think it is fool proof, just my method. Maybe it's the glue I use, who knows.

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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Roderick Treece » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:36 pm

Hi Jerry !
I am intrigued by your method only taking a few hours to fully chip. That would be great to reduce my time from trimming to finished chipping.At what point does the "couple of hours or less" begin. Could you give us more details ???

Maybe we should exchange glue and see what happens ?

Thanks

Jerry Berg
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Jerry Berg » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:39 pm

Hey Roderick,

As I have been doing more chipping the process has been getting quicker every time.
I'm thinking the glue I've been using might be the ticket? Who knows. Lee mentioned the guy in our
area doing the commercial chipping, that it's done overnight. Maybe He's using the same
glue. Maybe the weather here has something to do with it, I don't know. Even though
it is wet here my skin gets very dry in the wet winter months. Gotta use lots of moisterizer.
I allways use the asphaltum method. It gets things done quicker for me not having to cut
around stencils. The couple of hour thing starts when I apply the heat. I let the glass
dry overnight. In the morning the edges are coming up and chipping is starting. I then
put it in the box, or shower, and turn on the hair dryer. It's when the hair dryer is on that
things happen quickly. By the way, there are allways those few stuborn spots. I use an exacto
to pop them off, that part chips also most of the time. My kids and I where discussing this since
this thread came up. They remember the shower incident and how loud and quickly the thing chipped.
They really enjoy this forum as well.

Robert Schwieger
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Robert Schwieger » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:51 pm

Hello,

Great discussion. I have had reasonably good success with a computer cardboard box and a small dehumidifier. This supplies heat as well as dryness and the unit kicks on and off to prevent overheating. Outcomes vary of course but it is successful most of the time. Experience has shown that the difference may be traced to the brand of glue (just my experience). I too, have had the experience of setting aside a glass piece that "didn't chip well" and discovering six months later that it completely chipped although in this case some the chips were quite large.
I am curious about the hair dryer. What brand? Does it have an automatic "on-off" ? Some will just shut down if they get too hot but what about turning back on? Is there one that has a thermostat? Would like to know as I have had excellent experiences using hair dryers in printmaking processes. Thanks for the discussion. Bob

Tyler Tim
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by Tyler Tim » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:28 am

I agree good info... I now have some GCG #10 and a piece of 1/4 plate. I believe I have some boxes. Just have to borrow the wife's hair drier. :shock:
Sure I paint thing for my amusement and then offer them for sale. A brushslinger could whither en die from lack of creativity in this plastic town my horse threw a shoe in. :shock:

vance galliher
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:07 pm

finally got it to chip.......new glass panel, 1:1.5 glue/water ratio, used about 3.75 oz. of glue to cover approx. 1 sq ft of etched glass. Warmed glass on light table before appling glue, turned off lights,let set overnight- no fan, turned on light table this morning ( uncovered and no fan ). Almost done after 5 hrs. I don't like the nice fern chip it's giving ( I prefer a more violent chip, so I'll do more testing with different mixes ) but it will do ! Now on to the stage carving of Iris.
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by bob gamache » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:05 pm

Hey Vance Nice Chip! Looks great! You could always give it a double chip if you're not satisfied before you unmask to give a more nugget like appearance instead of the PERFECT, NICE FERN PATTERN WE ALL STRIVE FOR!!!..........ya done good!
Bob Gamache

vance galliher
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by vance galliher » Sat Feb 18, 2012 1:08 am

...Thanks bob, ..............it does looks good! I'll do more test...see how different ratios react on light table. I like this light table method! How did you do the chip on this piece, and can you create it at will?? Or a fern,……? there must be a way of predictability? I really like that aggressive chip on your piece....
vance
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bob gamache
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Re: glue chipping...........

Post by bob gamache » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:10 am

Hi vance
I suppose if EVERY phase of any said glue chip project was totally identical including sandblasting there might be a similarity on the end result. As for me, no, I haven't been able to reproduce the exact the same pattern at will. I do believe that the more course the sandblast media used the more aggressive the chip pattern. I used some fairly course material when I blasted my glass it was too large to fit into a glass beader so I used 0 silica sand with a hand held blaster. Hope this helps!
Bob Gamache

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